It's time to ask again: what's MP for?

[Kohashi]

Mana management is very present for some classes/roles. Aside from BLM, DRK, RDM, PLD, it's especially relevant during progs, MINE duties, which include the first few weeks of the newly launched current savage, ULTS, and when you die or multiple people die.

I always have to carry mana pots with me. Different SPS builds will require you to have mana pots available to be able to maximize both DPS and shielding/healing even outside of prog. Even using mana pots sometimes is not enough to sustain upcoming mechanics if I die for whatever reason.

[FuturePastNow]

Ultimately the main purpose of MP seems to be to place a (relatively generous) limit on the rate at which healers and casters can raise in a fight. For everyone else, like Paladin or DRK, it's just using the MP bar in lieu of adding another resource bar to the job gauge.

[Mikey_R]

When you don't get heals, which comes from an outside source, sometimes you die, and it lessens the experience as well.

And you can point the finger at the healer for doing a bad job as that is the primary role they have to do in the instance.

A phys ranged primary role is not going to be to manage someone else's MP, it is to do damage, with MP management being secondary to that. There is also the fact that, as the caster, I have no idea when the MP recovery is coming, how long it is until it is off cooldown, are they even going to use it at all etc. There are just too many variables outside of your control for you to properly manage your MP, so it isn't going to be utilised properly either, as the default will be to play it safe.

Just feels bad when someone messes something up and you have to deal with the consequences of it!

A Phys Ranged not using MP recovery only messes up the caster, someone dying inconveniences the healer for a GCD or 2, but it also punishes the player that died as they are now...not playing the game. You are then encouraged to learn the mechanics and not die, which improves your experience, and helps your healer by not having to react to something out of the ordinary.

But then again instead they shifted everything on having mechanics where someone messes up their DDR the party wipes anyway, turning every other player into a potential enemy

Which has nothing to do with MP management at all.

However, I do find it quite telling that you didn't try and explore the points I made in my post. I assume you have the opposite opinion of me, so why not talk about what I have said and why you think it would be good for the game. We do have to bear in mind we need to look at all ranges of skill, but that could just be a, the more casual audience really don't care about optimising that much, so I don't think it needs to have as big a consideration as a more organised group who can plan and properly manage between themselves. We would likely agree to disagree, but at least you are putting your thought process out there as it is rather than trying to hide behind a bad analogy.

[Daralii]

Ultimately the main purpose of MP seems to be to place a (relatively generous) limit on the rate at which healers and casters can raise in a fight. For everyone else, like Paladin or DRK, it's just using the MP bar in lieu of adding another resource bar to the job gauge.

They're already adding a party-wide raise limit in the new Criterion, so they should just put that in everything and get rid of the fossil that is the pink bar. PLD can just get a 120s cooldown on Clemency and DRK can get shared TBN/Edge/Flood charges that are restored with Bloodspiller/Quietus/Delirium.

[Not a serious suggestion]

[Brandr]

"I played this job for 1 day, here's my suggestions..." topic

[Valence]

And you can point the finger at the healer for doing a bad job as that is the primary role they have to do in the instance.

A phys ranged primary role is not going to be to manage someone else's MP, it is to do damage, with MP management being secondary to that. There is also the fact that, as the caster, I have no idea when the MP recovery is coming, how long it is until it is off cooldown, are they even going to use it at all etc. There are just too many variables outside of your control for you to properly manage your MP, so it isn't going to be utilised properly either, as the default will be to play it safe.

So let me ask the following question then: why do people get pissy at healers not doing enough damage or at all, since it is not their primary role, as healing is the defined primary role of healers? Because a role is secondary doesn't mean that role is by necessity optional or useless especially in challenging content.

A Phys Ranged not using MP recovery only messes up the caster, someone dying inconveniences the healer for a GCD or 2, but it also punishes the player that died as they are now...not playing the game. You are then encouraged to learn the mechanics and not die, which improves your experience, and helps your healer by not having to react to something out of the ordinary.

That is absolutely disingenuous. You can perfectly die for reasons totally out of your control if a healer doesn't properly heal unavoidable damage. In fact, it can also be other roles too, especially in savage/ultimates, when some people do not press their mitigation buttons. Does this mitigation thing somehow qualify as a more "primary job" than using manasong? Saying yes would be illogical.

However, I do find it quite telling that you didn't try and explore the points I made in my post. I assume you have the opposite opinion of me, so why not talk about what I have said and why you think it would be good for the game. We do have to bear in mind we need to look at all ranges of skill, but that could just be a, the more casual audience really don't care about optimising that much, so I don't think it needs to have as big a consideration as a more organised group who can plan and properly manage between themselves. We would likely agree to disagree, but at least you are putting your thought process out there as it is rather than trying to hide behind a bad analogy.

I actually already did somewhere earlier, in the part about systems that do not fall within the binary umbrella, which was especially the case in HW, notably dungeons - aka heaving manasong or tp song would alleviate strain on party resources, but was hardly mandatory for completion. But they could perfectly stay binary in challenging content, because that's what healing and mitigation are, and I don't see any difference as exposed above.

[Shipp]

For all the people talking about how the ranged DPS won't know when to give MP, there are these handy things called macros that anyone in high end raiding should be familiar with. It is not difficult as a healer to create a macro that says, " /p Hey, I need MP please!" At that point if the ranged DPS doesn't use the ability, that's on the DPS not paying attention.

[Oizen]

Edge of Shadow and TBN

[Catwho]

I feel like the only job where I seriously notice MP is Red Mage. After doing my rotation for long enough, I realize I need to press Lucid. I can't think of any other jobs where that's the case. Maybe occasionally healers, but they all have actions that restore MP naturally if you don't press Lucid.

Anyway, the real reason they can't remove it is because Yoshi-P criticized 1.0 for the fact that no matter how much you cast heals, you never ran out of MP.

We are so close to that being the case now as well. I can currently spam Physick and Cure without ever running out of MP. Same with Holy III. And most healing now is done with abilities that don't consume any MP anyway.

Happens on summoner on fights with no down time. After 10 minutes of riding cooldown timers, I'll start to run out of MP and have to pop a Lucid as well. Only applies on fights that last longer than 10 minutes where I am playing perfectly, though.