How should tbn get changed/updated?

[Valence]

Attaching damage bonuses to support abilities in a damage focused meta/gameplay, and people using said support only during raid buffs? Who could have expected that I wonder.
It's almost like people don't do the same already with gap closers...

[Supersnow845]

Attaching damage bonuses to support abilities in a damage focused meta/gameplay, and people using said support only during raid buffs? Who could have expected that I wonder.
It's almost like people don't do the same already with gap closers...

In this case it’s more like giving a noticeable downside which in my mind is more of an overall benefit to the jobs design than its potential downsides, especially since it’s a skill that like ED is often favourable to use when looked at holistically even if it’s a local damage loss. Those kinds of skills should be encouraged

[Azurarok]

it wouldn't feel nearly as "bad" if raid buffs weren't all on the 2min and pressuring us to pack in as many attacks as we can into that 20s window

[Carighan]

it wouldn't feel nearly as "bad" if raid buffs weren't all on the 2min and pressuring us to pack in as many attacks as we can into that 20s window

As plenty MMOs other than FFXIV (and that itself) have shown, this situation will always exist no matter what. Players want to optimize their damage output, so they'll find out which abilities to pool/withhold and which buffs to align for optimal overall damage output to make the fights as short as possible. You can sort-of work against it, but only if you're willing to massively embrace RNG-based combat mechanics, in particular relatively rare procs and non-reliable gauge generators and consumers, which in turn makes stacking buffs and abilities flat out impossible to achieve. But also robs the player of all agency in such regards, of course (that's kinda the point, granted).

[Azurarok]

The other thing is for the devs to not cave in to players throwing a tantrum over a 150 potency move not getting raid buffs and claiming that's why they hit enrage at 0.1%

[Rithy255]

In this case it’s more like giving a noticeable downside which in my mind is more of an overall benefit to the jobs design than its potential downsides, especially since it’s a skill that like ED is often favourable to use when looked at holistically even if it’s a local damage loss. Those kinds of skills should be encouraged

The main issue with that is the other "short cooldowns" don't offer a noticeable downside, most of them are outright also better effects for 90% of content (I do understand TBN is a very good CD in hardcore and has it's advantages).

I don't particularly think I'd like it if cooldowns should have some sort of downside for only being useable in certain situations or you lose damage like TBN (I much rather be rewarded for good use rather then punished, such as samurais cooldown giving you 10 Gauge) But I think even if we made tank cooldowns for some reason make you lose damage for non good use then it will create a even more static gameplay loop of only Press when tank buster, Raid wide ect. Though ultimately I think tanks have way too much cooldowns that all do practically the same thing

Though funnily enough I do like some rigid gameplay quirks such as damaging gap closers, I just don't think it will always translate to defensive useage well, I much rather bosses output actual damage for these defensives to feel impactful and "good" though this goes into the larger issues of general job design which people have discussed over and over.

[PyurBlue]

The only thing I'd change about TBN is the threshold for the MP refund. If the shield takes any damage at all, it should trigger. Being punished for having ilvl is one of the worst feelings.

If I really had to push for other changes, make TBN interact with other defenses. Before LD was changed I considered the possibility of letting LD consume TBN for an alternate (near) invulnerability skill that would essentially be a bigger TBN.

[SalamanderIX]

TBN has a scaling issue for me mostly. And it feels like every expansion since Stormblood it has lost effectiveness.
Because the Barrier is a % of HP, there is a constantly shifting threshold of if it will get broken for the Darkarts proc or not. So you can get punished for getting better gear. More HP = better barrier, but potentially losing darkarts proc.
The second trouble with TBN is against reoccuring damage, such as autoattacks and poison.
Some poisons or autos will break them in 1-2 hits, but some will break them in 3. Since TBN is 7 seconds- this means you have to be hitting it near tick-perfect if it's 3. If there's a 4 hit threshold, you're out of luck. You shielded them, but again no Darkarts.

I noted the trouble with autoattacks a lot this expansion. Most bosses attack not so frequently for middling damage. Not usually enough to break a TBN. Exception was M5S, while not the heaviest of hitters - attacks frequently. M8SP2 also. Otherwise the entire tier1 I don't recall it being useful much either.

Solutions?
1. Scrap the Darkarts thing entirely and make it a more generic shield that costs no MP. A smaller shield with a little mitigation and a regen on it. I know this loses skill expression - but in the scope of a "wider" Dark Knight rework that could happen, I'd be fine with this if they added different places for skill expression.
2. Make the Darkarts proc a lower % than the Shield. Perhaps it's 50%. whatever % makes sense.

[Terhix]

TBN only being a shield is a good thing, and another thing I've started to feel with it is that because its always a 25% cut of your HP, it scales through expansions and powercreep a bit more gracefully than healing tools do.
(...)

TBN has a scaling issue for me mostly. And it feels like every expansion since Stormblood it has lost effectiveness.
Because the Barrier is a % of HP, there is a constantly shifting threshold of if it will get broken for the Darkarts proc or not. So you can get punished for getting better gear. More HP = better barrier, but potentially losing darkarts proc.
(...)

It's kind of funny how two different people can look at the %HP out-scaling healing potency and come to the exact opposite conclusion, and TBN is so quirky neither of you is wrong.

[Carighan]

The fact that other short-CDs need so much crap stapled onto them speaks to an underlying design issue, and in fact I'd go a step further and say TBN also having Darkside attached also shows the same issue (but on a smaller scale).

In a well-designed combat system, "I block the next 1-2 attacks" or "I got a sizeable HP-shield now" should be more than enough for an ability to be awesome to use. It should not need a lawnmower and a rubber duck stapled bolted on top, too.

Darkside as a whole is frankly a mechanic that is so outdated as a concept ("Please keep up this perfectly static buff with no real resource constraint and no randomized element at all, many skill, such play, so agency, wow"), it ought to be removed whole, anyways. Just increase all potencies by 10%, done. If someone says this'd be somehow inferior, please explain how a trait "Your very first GCD in a fight deals -9% damage" is somehow good design, because that is what Darkside amounts to.