How should tbn get changed/updated?

[Mesarthim]

This weird non-equal delay to things in FFXIV is so weird. If at least all skills had the same delays of press->application and application->effect, then I'd be okay. But somehow TBN has a far longer time between when you get the buff and when the shield can start absorbing damage than other shields!

It isn't just TBN since Manaward on BLM has the same issue. Press it too late and you still get punched in the face without the pillow.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

It isn't just TBN since Manaward on BLM has the same issue. Press it too late and you still get punched in the face without the pillow.

Application timing is one part of the equation, the other is how damage calculation is working. Basically, when damage occurs, it checks for a bunch of things like "are you immune to damage? does it crit? do you block/parry?" and shields tend to be very early in the calculation from what I could feel/figure out as it's basically just checking what your HP is first. (shields are just yellow HP)

That's why things like Hallowed Ground (immunity check) were notorious for having to be pressed early enough else it being ignored - this got improved over time.

I think it more or less checks things in this order:

1.) Immunity
2.) HP values
3.) Mitigation effects
4.) Crit [yes/no]
5.) If no crit: Block [yes/no]
6.) If no block: Parry [yes/no]
7.) Can you die? (Holmgang/Living Dead)
8.) Are you dead? (HP <= 0)

That's why you can activate Holmgang and Living Dead after a snapshot already occured as the animation goes out - I did it many times in ultimates (10-30ms latency), it's quite silly.

[Oizen]

Considering they were able to patch that on invuls to some extent, I do think TBN should be given the faster application too if possible.

[Carighan]

Considering they were able to patch that on invuls to some extent, I do think TBN should be given the faster application too if possible.

I have a feeling they did this by allowing the client a very limited "optimistic" snapshotting of abilities. That is, the client records the timestamp when you pressed invuln, and sends that timestamp to the server, where it is compared to the timestamp of the point where the server wants to record you as having died. This is of course something most systems don't want to do, as it gives clients a limited amount of "truth" influence. You should always keep that to the server if possible.

Of course, unless they want to actually provide usable netcode overall (and there's a caveat to this, see below) this is probably the best they can do; but they'll also want to keep it very very limited to not allow people hacking their client to cheat the combat system.

Could they "just" switch to better netcode implementations? Of course. It was Starcraft that first brought in predictive netcode, right? Where the client assumes what is going to happen and then the server "corrects" it, with smoothing and interpolation to prevent the kind of jittery jumping back&forth of characters and units and such?
But, imagine them doing this in FFXIV: We're so used to this innate "delay" to everything. Not TBN-delay, but the little delay everything has. Imagine they patch this. Imagine if things happened near-instantly when you press a button. If dodging boss AoEs had to happen on-time, like in most other games. We are so used to this delay, we'd all be dying left and right and center to the simplest fights as we all intuitively account for this delay with everything we do.

[Derio]

Honestly the only thing that needs to change with TBN is there needs to be a lower level version(Just reuse shadowskin animation) unlocked before lvl 50 and then it upgrades to TBN at 70.

If they keep the risk vs reward factor for TBN then it needs to do more, whether that is adding mitigation, adding healing or increasing the duration to 10s to allow more time for the skill to break.

We compare TBN to other short mits. TBN provides a shield, that is it. Others have some combo of shield and heal or heal and mitigation or all 3. I dont think the 10s shorter cooldown with risk/reward factor is strong enough to justify it's current strength compared to other tanks.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

[...] We compare TBN to other short mits. TBN provides a shield, that is it. Others have some combo of shield and heal or heal and mitigation or all 3. I dont think the 10s shorter cooldown with risk/reward factor is strong enough to justify it's current strength compared to other tanks.

Strictly from a mitigation standpoint? That 25% HP shield is a lot mightier than it lets on. "That is it" like as if it isn't strong. I mean:

- if you use TBN vs a single hit, it provides equal effective HP (eHP) as rampart, as 20% mitigation mathed out is +25% eHP
- unlike other %-type mitigation, TBN actually scales in value when paired with one or more %-type mitigation effects rather than having diminishing returns
- even with prolonged damage taken, that is a 25% HP shield on a 15s cooldown. If MP pool allows, that's a benediction's worth in shields over the course of a minute.

Pre Lv82, thats TBN vs base Sheltron, Raw Intuition and Heart of Stone. TBN is incredibly powerful here. Post Lv82, thats TBN + Oblation vs the upgraded short mits, which is still quite potent because DRK also has Dark Mind on a 60s cooldown rather than 90s like Bulwark, Thrill of Battle and Camouflage. Being able to have a 19%/28% mitigation + a 25% HP shield every minute without even considering Rampart, Shadowed Vigil or Reprisal is extremely potent.

For context, with 19% (Dark Mind + Oblation vs physical) and TBN, you sit at 154.32% eHP, with 28% (same but vs magical) that amounts to 173.61% eHP.
For comparison, Holy Sheltron + Bulwark or Rampart (15%, 15%, 20% mitigations) is 173.01% eHP, with both of them having a longer cooldown/chargeup.

Quite close numbers, but with drastic cooldown differences. Technically, it is more than fine - but if we really want something "added" or improved...

1.) Extend the timer of TBN to 8-10 seconds (from 7 seconds) to at least match the short mitigations)
2.) Add whatever healing/utility you may want on Oblation instead

[Oizen]

TBN only being a shield is a good thing, and another thing I've started to feel with it is that because its always a 25% cut of your HP, it scales through expansions and powercreep a bit more gracefully than healing tools do.
I dont know if its just me but tools like Heart of Corrundum or Equalibirum don't feel as powerful as they did in Endwalker, it feels like the older skills get the more their healing potency gets left behind. Its not that significant yet but I remember loving HoC a lot in Endwalker, while when I revisit Gunbreaker it just sorta feels lesser than I remember.

Soul Eater has fallen off like this for DRK, It feels a lot stronger in low level content than it does into later levels.
I did some basic testing and found that it used to restore ~15% of your health in old content(lv 28), drops to 8% by lv 50, then restores as low as 5% in current ilv content. Given how wildly stats balloon between Shadowbrings to Dawntrail I think this is probably what I'm feeling, and it makes sense that TBN feels a lot more consistent across level ranges than healing tools on WAR or GNB as a result.

Hopefully they modernize healing potencies across the board at some point like they did for Abyssal drain