How should tbn get changed/updated?

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

[...]Delete Oblation which feels even more like it's just button bloat after the Dark Mind change.[...]

Being able to freely throw a 10% mitigation to self or a teammate on a 60s recharge, indepedently of Dark Mind and TBN, is not button bloat. The power is in its flexibility. 10% is also not a small amount if you layer it with other things. I mean, healers have a plethora of things doing 10% mitigation (single-target and AOE). It's not your first-response tool, but an extra layer to your bulk.

Sorry, but every comment that says "delete Oblation because its bloat" disappoints me a little. How about we "don't" delete things based on a whim?

[Canadane]

I'd change it by making it accessible at a lower level.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I'd change it by making it accessible at a lower level.

Sounds good to me. Something like "Arcane Barrier", make it like 15% (basically strength of what Divine Benison used to be). If not in the ARR kit, by Lv60 sounds decent.

Could also make TBN have some additional flair to make the upgrade stand out more, but I am not having a good idea for it at the moment.

[Carighan]

Add a HoT when it expires regardless of whether the shield was used or not. Delete Oblation which feels even more like it's just button bloat after the Dark Mind change. Alternatively, allowing the unused portion of the shield to convert to healing when the shield expires would lower the skill floor. 2nd alternate suggestion would be roll the mitigation from Oblation into TBN but I can only imagine the complaints if that happened.

I was thinking the same but I'd just flat-out merge it: After TBN expires (no matter why or now), you get another X seconds of 10% DR. Delete Oblation in turn. Done.

Being able to freely throw a 10% mitigation to self or a teammate on a 60s recharge, indepedently of Dark Mind and TBN, is not button bloat. The power is in its flexibility.

whynotboth.jpg

It is button bloat. It also gives flexibility. But it also is just button bloat, as we already have multiple versions of percentage-DR, both for ourselves and others.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I think I have a very different view in what button bloat is <_<

For context, Shoha II prior to making Shoha for SAM having a cleave aspect, was just an AOE version for the sake of it and cost the same as Shoha I, which has been rectified thankfully. That's what I see as "bloat". Same kind of applies to Senei/Guren for me.
(I do not consider basic spenders as such, but rather actions with significant cooldown or requirements of time spent preparing matching one).

Oblation being decoupled from TBN allows for independent usage rather than having an opportunity cost tied to TBN, which is why I did not consider it bloat. Maybe a bit flavourless if we look at it just from the effect, sure - but I didn't see it as bloat.

The ability to spot mitigate multiple people, especially without jeopardizing myself, has helped me saving people a lot of times where I just said "Paladin could never do this". Very basic effect, but the flexibility is fantastic.

[Carighan]

By that logic it'd be strictly preferable if every tank had every effect separated and as many of them as possible, no? Maximum flexibility! And it clearly has no downside, just allows you to spot more people!

The button-bloat comes from being already able to do that. TBN can already be used on other people. We already have a percentage damage reduction for partymembers (even multiple!), independent of three extra percentage damage reductions on ourselves. This means that if the need for more of this exists, it should come from CD-reductions or CD-resetting trigger effects on these abilities instead of adding yet another button for yet another CD to track. Plus it's not neutral, it comes with the very real downside of this approach of "just add more flexibility" washing out the identity of every individual effect. Which can be good in a pure approach (a shield is a shield because it's a shield, oh ja), but in FFXIV we are rarely doing that. Meaning that just like GW2, skills derive character from their plethora of extra effects. and then instead you get Oblation which is a 10%DR with no other effects on a fairly long CD. No trigger effects, no extra shielding, no runspeed effects, no healing received, no nothing.

[Rithy255]

I don't think TBN has any reward in the "risk vs reward" exchange.

I don't think they need to remove the MP costing aspect, but using TBN should be rewarded instead of being DPS neutral and not incentivising some level of risk, such as a very small potency gain from using edge of shadow while under the effects of "dark arts". Theirs also the possibilty of adding a small healing effect, though I think dark knight is fine with healing sustain right now I dont think it needs more so something would have to give somewhere else for me to be more on board with that, I'd move it down a couple of levels too (Like around 50-60).

On the topic of Oblation, I think oblation could possibly be reworked, I don't really see the point in having a 10% mitigation it feels like the definition of "bloat" it only really exists as you can't have extra mitigation value tied to TBN unlike other tank skills (which I am against stacking effects onto skills that do the same thing, I rather stuff like Holy sheltron just be a 20% mit and regen, not two seperate stacked mits). You can very easily make something like dark mind targetable and have 2 charges. Tanks already have rampart, 40% mit, short mit and a 90s (60s for drk) by default, they should generally separate those skills and make them more flexible we don't really need more mitigation skills put ontop of that especially when you can have more interesting skills replace that.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

By that logic it'd be strictly preferable if every tank had every effect separated and as many of them as possible, no? Maximum flexibility! And it clearly has no downside, just allows you to spot more people!

Way to go, you exaggerated the point I made about its' flexibility and made it ridiculous. I did NOT say that it would be ideal that EVERY tank had every effect separated and split into as many cooldowns as possible, I said that Oblation being separate has its uses/positives and by extension DOWNSIDES. Besides, without any changes, a couple effects like the 4s duration bonus mitigations on the 25s CDs would be a hassle to press VS Oblation's 10 seconds duration.

The button-bloat comes from being already able to do that. TBN can already be used on other people. We already have a percentage damage reduction for partymembers (even multiple!), independent of three extra percentage damage reductions on ourselves.

Yes, TBN can do that and then you can still Oblation up to two more targets VS other tanks either having to make a distinct choice on how they spend their gauge/25s cooldown or reserve stuff for themselves, in return their Short CDs are simply more potent.

Dark Missionary has a 90s CD and can't be free-balled like Oblation can, nor can you freely choose between using it on yourself or party members without having to heavily weigh that decision (in high-end content), it is also only 5% physical. With Reprisal's shorter CD you "can" make that decision more easily in 8-man and higher content, but there is also a possibility that you do not get the opportunity to debuff an enemy in the first place.

And even then, that's the beauty of it - if you want to give up to two players a 2nd 10% mitigation and a 3rd player a 25% shield, that's DRK's strength and niche. You call it bloat, I call it an extra strength. It's similar to Paladin - weaker individually, but more independent of other factors.

[...]independent of three extra percentage damage reductions on ourselves.[...]

Uh-huh... why are we talking about the baseline CD lineup all tanks have (rampart, 40%, extra CD) with just some differences in the bonus effects and all of them being self-only? That's like saying "Paladin is fine even without the ability to Sheltron and Intervention for 100 gauge at the same time, they still have three other % mits for themselves". Yes they will be fine, but god forbid there's a niche?

This means that if the need for more of this exists, it should come from CD-reductions or CD-resetting trigger effects on these abilities instead of adding yet another button for yet another CD to track.

I'm on board with that idea in theory, but the devil's in the details. Very much entertaining the idea though.

Plus it's not neutral, it comes with the very real downside of this approach of "just add more flexibility" washing out the identity of every individual effect. Which can be good in a pure approach (a shield is a shield because it's a shield, oh ja), but in FFXIV we are rarely doing that. Meaning that just like GW2, skills derive character from their plethora of extra effects. and then instead you get Oblation which is a 10%DR with no other effects on a fairly long CD. No trigger effects, no extra shielding, no runspeed effects, no healing received, no nothing.

Ok first, Oblation to my knowledge is the only defensive ability that was made like this where every other ability to my knowledge is actually leaning into the GW2-style skills with plethora of effects within a single ability. The 40%s, the Extra CDs (Bulwark, Thrill, DMind, Camou), Rampart, the party mits (particularly Veil & shake) and the varying short mitigations including TBN (MP + Dark Arts interaction) are like this. The closest thing to Oblation is literally just Aurora.

So I genuinely do not understand the "this approach [...] washing out the identity of every individual effect" like what do you mean by that? The vast majority of skills are UNLIKE Oblation, from what I am reading you are making a mole out of an ant hill.

[Oizen]

Oblation grants Dark Knight the unique ability to single target mit 3 individual people at once.

If you don't see value in that you probably don't do high end content.
There is a lot of power in having these buttons exist seperately rather than as yet another homogenous fire and forget lv 82 tank mit

[VictorSpoils]

Oblation would be slightly less awkward if it were available at a lower level (even, dare I say, before TBN) with 1 or 2 charges, and optionally got an upgrade to 15%. There are still too many WARs running around anyways.