Character Death in the MSQ

[RedLolly]

What's funny is I noticed a few years ago that there are a few plot points I keep putting into my own works and realized that someone would absolutely consider it a "trope" of mine despite it simply being a thing I like exploring in fiction. Considering FFXIV has had the same few people overseeing it since at least 2.0, seeing similar ideas and stylistic choices is just that, the creative team's style.

Anyway. At this point, killing off a main Scion is pretty impossible. As self-sacrificing as G'raha is as a character, and the fact he keeps throwing himself in danger to save us, AND the fact he's had what? 4 fake-out deaths in the plot, he's one of the most popular characters. He has a ton of merch. He brings in players. We like using him in content. (Shoot, his English VA is a massive Hollywood actor now who got his break during ShB, but even HE adores the character so much that he wants to keep on as his voice as much as possible.) Killing G'raha off would damage the game.

That's why we get characters like Moenbryda or Geode. We get a minor character we get to explore a bit and get attached too that can still have some emotional impact and ripples in the plot. The writing behind that Geode section was such a massive shift and improvement in writing emotional beats in DT that I hate to say it, his sacrifice kind of saved the plot a bit for me. They made me care again. But if it had been G'raha? I'd probably log off and never come back, because he's my favorite.

[StormChase]

What's funny is I noticed a few years ago that there are a few plot points I keep putting into my own works and realized that someone would absolutely consider it a "trope" of mine despite it simply being a thing I like exploring in fiction. Considering FFXIV has had the same few people overseeing it since at least 2.0, seeing similar ideas and stylistic choices is just that, the creative team's style.

Anyway. At this point, killing off a main Scion is pretty impossible. As self-sacrificing as G'raha is as a character, and the fact he keeps throwing himself in danger to save us, AND the fact he's had what? 4 fake-out deaths in the plot, he's one of the most popular characters. He has a ton of merch. He brings in players. We like using him in content. (Shoot, his English VA is a massive Hollywood actor now who got his break during ShB, but even HE adores the character so much that he wants to keep on as his voice as much as possible.) Killing G'raha off would damage the game.

That's why we get characters like Moenbryda or Geode. We get a minor character we get to explore a bit and get attached too that can still have some emotional impact and ripples in the plot. The writing behind that Geode section was such a massive shift and improvement in writing emotional beats in DT that I hate to say it, his sacrifice kind of saved the plot a bit for me. They made me care again. But if it had been G'raha? I'd probably log off and never come back, because he's my favorite.

They shouldn't kill off main characters for the sake of it. The Crystal Exarch living on as G'raha Tia was a better conclusion than him dying and staying dead. I just think the deaths can be a little too predictable sometimes. Not Final Fantasy, but I remember Stranger Things facing similar criticisms about them introducing a new character each season who's made to die so they can play it safe with the main cast.

[Sorabaka]

Papalymo might have been the most unpopular of the Scions, but he still was loved by a lot of players. I agree that it's not great that he was practically forgotten after 3.5, until lvl 87 dungeon.

Geode was a good side character. He was present for major events. He might have not beenthe most impactful character, but still a very solid one.

The only "trope" i can absolutely agree with is "fakeout". 2.55 and Heavensward did it the best way they could. At the end of ARR i genuinely felt the weight that Alphinaud and WoL were carrying, after that escape. We didn't know the fate of Scions, we did think Nanamo died, and we were pretty much a wanted criminals by the Uldah. The whole conspiracy thing was ok, Nanamo being asleep wasn't a terrible choice. And what's important, scions who used teleportation magic paid for it. Yshtola went blind, Thancred lost the ability to control aether, Minfilia practically died. I guess Papalymo and Yda didn't really suffer much consequences, but it's alright too.

What's bad is that after Heavensward SE constantly, constantly killing off characters and bringing them back. All the damn time. And they make it as if the characters gonna die for real, but bringing them back literal couple cutscenes later, because they have no balls to kill a marketable character. The most egregious example of this was Endwalker. I liked the scenes of their sacrifices, especially the twins. And the part where you walk alone is amazing. But then the very next cutscene we just summon Emet and then return everyone. For me, it didn't ruin the story, but still left a bitter taste. Like what even was the point of the zone if we can just use a mcguffin immediately?

There are two bad ways to deal with deaths in stories : the one is this one above, where you constantly bring back the dead characters (Marvel also very infamous for doing this), and the other where you kill everyone all the time (Jujutsu Kaisen is the most shiny example of this), to the point where you just stop caring when someone dies, no matter how important the character was.

Deaths should be used in moderation, for important moments. Not as a cheap trick to get a tear out of a player.

[PercibelTheren]

I think a lot of MSQ deaths are purely a result of the writers not knowing what to do with the character anymore. Ysayle, I believe, was the first victim of this phenomenon. Her character arc was complete, so she had to die. It's apparently their favourite way of tying up loose ends (yes, I'm immensely salty they did this with the Twelve). This is actually also what happens to a lot of major villains. I thought it would be much more interesting to grab some of them by the scruff and drag them, kicking and screaming, towards atonement but the only case we got any hint of this was Gaius and in his case, it was more like "conveniently forget all the villainous things he's done uwu".

Actually, many deaths in the story are a result of lazy writing - upping the stakes by fridging a character (Haurchefant, the king of Tural) is another extremely common one. And yeah, there are also a bunch of red shirts like Geode but Dawntrail in general completely failed to spark any kind of interest in me, so my reaction to 95% of it was "meh" anyway.

[MikkoAkure]

I think a lot of MSQ deaths are purely a result of the writers not knowing what to do with the character anymore. Ysayle, I believe, was the first victim of this phenomenon. Her character arc was complete, so she had to die. It's apparently their favourite way of tying up loose ends (yes, I'm immensely salty they did this with the Twelve). This is actually also what happens to a lot of major villains. I thought it would be much more interesting to grab some of them by the scruff and drag them, kicking and screaming, towards atonement but the only case we got any hint of this was Gaius and in his case, it was more like "conveniently forget all the villainous things he's done uwu".

Ysayle was written for Heavensward. The work on the expansion was well underway when she was introduced and she died in 3.0. The character's whole purpose was to have an arc and then die and the decision probably came before we even met her.

Actually, many deaths in the story are a result of lazy writing - upping the stakes by fridging a character (Haurchefant, the king of Tural) is another extremely common one. And yeah, there are also a bunch of red shirts like Geode but Dawntrail in general completely failed to spark any kind of interest in me, so my reaction to 95% of it was "meh" anyway.

I think you should probably lay off the tv tropes for a while.

[Cleretic]

For the record, that poster wasn't just broadly wrong about 'fridging' there, but they were wrong in a very specifically bad way that defeats the very real purpose of the term. 'Fridging' is specifically when a female character is killed anticlimactically and abruptly for no reason but to emotionally motivate a male character. Gender is important here, because it is very specifically a misogynist cliche; the woman is reduced to a shallow plot beat, a thing to motivate a man. Even if you do theoretically disregard gender, Haurchefant and Gulool Ja Ja don't really scan for it, because their deaths are quite significant story moments for all involved, act as the culmination of the characters' own arcs, and affect a lot more than just a single character's feelings.

There aren't really examples of fridging in FFXIV, but I can't necessarily say that as a positive, because there's a few deaths that don't even reach that bar. Minfilia and debatably Ysayle would plausibly be fridging if anybody in the story even cared, but in both cases the overwhelming response was 'damn, that sucked, let's keep going'. It took until Shadowbringers for either one to have any meaningful impact on others.

[Shistar]

There aren't really examples of fridging in FFXIV, but I can't necessarily say that as a positive, because there's a few deaths that don't even reach that bar. Minfilia and debatably Ysayle would plausibly be fridging if anybody in the story even cared, but in both cases the overwhelming response was 'damn, that sucked, let's keep going'. It took until Shadowbringers for either one to have any meaningful impact on others.

I found it incredibly insulting that Ysayle dies in front of us, Alphinaud says a generic "Nooooo, my friend. Anyways" dialogue and we just move on. What was that!? Where's her grave or memorial, where's the people she led, what happened to anything related to her? At least Minfilia makes some sort of comeback, but Ysayle's case was just depressing...

[RedLolly]

I would absolutely put Ysayle in that camp for Estinien, even if only on a very minor level.


Honestly didn't like Ysayle. She was a prime reason why Heavensward did little for me personally despite the popular opinion. I just kept thinking she was an idiot and kinda freaky for turning the image of a gentle saint that loved dragons to her death into that ice themed, amazonian warrior goddess, and then being shocked when Hreasvelgr, the real Shiva's lover who Ysayle knew was her lover all along, was deeply offended by how Ysayle twisted her image. I understand that Shiva, the FF summon, is designed like that in every game she's appeared, but in the context of FFXIV, it felt REALLY gross that Ysayle did that to Shiva and her legacy. She has her breakdown and when we go back to get her to help with the rebels that she abandoned post-breakdown, she's still in Hreasvelgr's home despite how unwelcome she clearly was to him. But the game just... doesn't acknowledge it and I am apparently the only person that took her story that way. "Yeah, Ysayle was a little confused but she meant well!"

She only got away with much of it because Hreasvelgr is so nice.

I genuinely don't know if the read is Estinien regretting he couldn't "fix her" (thus very much being a fridged character as she's only brought up wistfully around him) or if I'm supposed to be mad at Hydaelyn for letting Ysayle go that far off the rails after a bad Echo trip since that was the era of the story Hydaelyn seemed to be evil and not just really struggling at her job.

[Cleretic]

Honestly didn't like Ysayle. She was a prime reason why Heavensward did little for me personally despite the popular opinion. I just kept thinking she was an idiot and kinda freaky for turning the image of a gentle saint that loved dragons to her death into that ice themed, amazonian warrior goddess, and then being shocked when Hreasvelgr, the real Shiva's lover who Ysayle knew was her lover all along, was deeply offended by how Ysayle twisted her image.

While largely unrelated, when you put it like that, I do think it's really interesting that Ysayle essentially did the same thing with Shiva that Ishgard did with Halone, who wasn't a goddess of war until Ishgard decided to wage one.

Which, as unfortunate as that is to phrase, is kinda just how real-world pantheons and sainthoods work. Domains just sorta get tacked on by social necessity; 'we need a god/patron saint of X now that it's a present part of our life, so let's staple that to Athena/tangentially link that to Saint Jimothy the Younger'. If anything Ysayle is kinda doing better than most; she is correctly identifying with Shiva's overall ideal, she's just picked a sword instead of an olive branch. ...and has some unhealthy associations that would've really served her to unpack with someone, but therapy's not exactly a thing a lot of people get to do in grand adventures.