Dark knight, Victim of good design

[Reginald_Cain]

Dark knight was the tank that set the foundation for modern tank design.

It was the first and only tank with a gap closer

The first to have a powerful short cd mitigation skill in tbn.

The first tank that healed per enemy hit by spammable gcd (old abyssal drain)

These mechanics made tanking so much more exciting for dark knights to the point the devs decided they should be to core mechanics to the whole role. I believe the gap closer and powerful short cd mits were good things for the role as a whole to get. However dark knight and to a smaller degree the other tanks don't have enough specials tools to feel unique from one another.

I ask my fellow dark enjoyers what mechanic do you think dark knight should be focused around?.

Paladin is focused around ranged magic attacks, healing and protection

Warrior is focused on (mostly) self healing and burst damage

Gunbreaker is focused on constantly pushing buttons to deal high damage and can spot heal occasionally .

Dark knights have weave heavy burst phases and wants to break tbn on themselves or a team mate whenever they can.

As it stands these don't feel like strong identities and have a lot of conceptual overlap. For dark knight I'd like more focus on being a counter attacker. The tbn dark arts mechanic is fun but feels like it can be made more interesting and less punishing. I'd like cooldowns like darkmind shadow wall and Oblation to change your gcds when attacked or allow for new combos to be executed. Maybe bring back blood price but make it so every hit you take gives a free edge of shadow up to a cap .

[Alice_Rivers]

I know I'm no DRK player, but I think it would be neat if it leaned more heavily on it's dark arts and maybe take blood weapon more seriously - Could be made so that your Blood gauge charges proportionately to the amount of damage you take and add to that a mechanic whereby the lower your HP the more damage you do, seems like a neat system to me. It would also play into a higher mitigation tank as you need that mitigation to stay alive as your HP stays low, that would require some very careful tuning of self-sustain though to prevent it becoming another WAR since it would be antithetical to the play style. I do wonder if TBN needs to be revisited though as I've seen people struggling to make it pop in DT dungeons.

[Carighan]

Dark knight was the tank that set the foundation for modern tank design.

That'd be Blood Death Knight in early WoW WotLK, and FFXIV has yet to understand this and create but a single tank implementation that learns any lessons from all the design paths earlier MMORPGs walked in all those years (not just WoW).

But as for my ideas what tanks should be focused around:

* Dark Knight should be the drain/magic tank. 3-4 DoTs total, many current abilities changed to those that apply DoTs. All DoT damage heals the DRK for 100% of the damage dealt. This would not be bursty healing like with the current Warrior, it would be a constant barrage of small heals coming in. Ranged attacks are genuinely spells like with the Reaper, in return it's an AoE for easier dungeon pulls. CDs also lean into this nature, like a short-duration rapid-ticking low damage + high HP drain aura, ability to sacrifice a percentage of one's own health for a big shield around self or someone else (to further lean into the constant self-healing), etc. Passive trait changed to provide significant +maxHP to facilitate survival despite reduced DR tools, allowing space for this constant HP regeneration to do its job.
* Gunbreaker should lean into its gun more. I know I know, cartridges are just to empower the next attack, yadda yadda, this isn't FF8 any more and we can do better designs over 26 years later! Ranged attack removed. All attacks have two animations, one is used automatically if done from more than melee range. Every ability can be used from range. Some jump onto the enemy like Double Down, virtually all just execute from range. Perfect uptime tank, basically. Defensive CDs could lean into this, too: Say one creates a "phantom" of yourself as you jump backwards, the enemy moves as if it wants melee range with this phantom but you are briefly immune unless their position also allows them to attack where you actually are now (so you want to stay at range briefly!).
* Paladin as a supporty-tank. Even more healing others, shielding others, covering others. This in turn is the basis of its gameplay, so no more spending instant casts on damage spells, that's not even an option, the job is a support tank not a caster tank. In return actively taking damage for others boosts own damage and other such effects, so even just for selfish reasons you want to constantly be protecting others.
* Warrior as an unstoppable juggernaut. Constant movement abilities baked into other skills like jumping at enemies, rushing enemies, pulling enemies to you. Ranged attack replaced with a 2 GCD combo that throws the actual weapon at the enemy, then leaps in to rip it out. All damage dealt stacks shields on the Warrior, up to a percentage of maxHP. All damage sustained after shields boosts damage dealt briefly (and hence shields generated). Most self-healing removed except maybe 1 emergency button (that's DRK's thing now).

[Shistar]

I ask my fellow dark enjoyers what mechanic do you think dark knight should be focused around?

Here are my ideas for all tanks, as I think focusing on their identity, dynamics and synergies is way more fun!

Job identity as an individual / in 4-man duties:

PLD: The most party support and alright self sustain abilities. Think group damage reduction, group regens, Clemency, Cover, etc. Their damage gimmick is the ranged burst of course (so they can also be allowed to give up melee positions to the DPS without giving up on uptime), but they should not be the strongest (maybe 4th-3rd place in terms of damage output). Ideal off-tank, classic and safe choice, but not basic. Very adaptable to the party's needs and shines when things go sideways and must support the healer to allow them to save the run, mainly in the form of party-wide and individual mitigations + cover, spot healing too. What they don't bring in damage, they make up for by being the party's strongest pillar of support.

WAR: Self sustain god, but minimum party support. I am not very familiar with WAR's rotation, so I'd leave the damage gimmick to their favorite part of it (provided it doesn't overlap with another tank's. My guess would be the classic gauge building into fell cleave bliss, trying to chain as many as possible back to back). Most likely the ideal MT and dungeon tank due to minimum babysitting required, but can't provide much help if things go sideways. Shouldn't be the strongest either (I'd place them on 3th-4th place due to their incredible usefulness in dungeons and possibility to ignore certain mechs in raids/ultimates if their self sustain is exploited appropriately). They could probably be the tank with the most CC, in an ideal world where CC would matter more in fights, and allow healers to contribute to the overall damage more aggressively/cheese mechanics with coordination.

DRK: Resource management maniac. HP and MP should be spendable in the name of damage and mitigation in the form of boss damage reductions, spot-shielding and party shields, and some may require you to take controlled amounts of damage to be set off ala TBN (or only be possible to use while in certain HP percentages). Trade-off is that you need to be extremely aware of what you're doing or you might nuke yourself/be unable to protect your party appropriately. Punishes greedy people very badly, but has the potential of most damage because the skill ceiling can be very high when a player exploits their resources to the max. Requires the most babysitting, as they may accidentally put themselves in seriously dangerous situations or straight up kill themselves if not careful. Damage would oscillate between 3rd and 1st depending on player skill. Absolute chaos as MT (doable, just need to be more careful or be very skilled), safer as OT if you're unfamiliar with the fight or learning the ropes.

GNB: Consistently strong damage output, minimum party support, alright self sustain. They're mostly doing their own thing and can provide some support in a pinch, but they can run out of support skills quickly if they're not careful. Selfish tank, but doesn't need as much babysitting so they're the second best MT option. Their rotation should allow to save cartdriges for different rotation types (big damage melee spender or weaker range shots to allow DPS their uptime without giving up their own damage). Their mitigation and self-sustain are middle of the road solid but they don't have as many as other tanks, making them decent OTs provided the healers meet them halfway, otherwise they will eventually die due to running out of self sustain (much like a DPS would). They mits and self-sustain are an equal divide between individual and party-wide.

Tank combinations in 8-man content:

PLD + WAR: The absolute best combo for prog parties, struggling players and DPS enablers. Simple, classic, foolproof.
These two guys are here to make sure no one has to worry about anything except their own mechs and damage, but they don't contribute much to it themselves in return. Healers can go crazy with their DPS (in an ideal world where they have a proper DPS rotation they would have had to sacrifice otherwise)
You simply can't go wrong with this combo. Either one can be MT, though it would be best to swap depending on mitigations to ensure healers can continue ignoring them for as long as possible.

PLD + DRK: A greedy DRK's best friend!
PLDs can offer great support to allow DRK to play risky without nuking itself as easily, as PLD helps shoulder the burden healers deal with when DRK is actively sacrificing HP for damage. The safer option would be MT PLD and OT DRK, but supporting an MT DRK would allow them to stay on the lower HP percentage range and reap that high damage reward. DRK will have the time of their lives with a good PLD. I also think they just look great together aesthetically, so I am absolutely biased.

PLD + GNB: The blue DPS and the DPS enabler join forces to make a very solid pair that allows for consistent damage without the risk of PLD+DRK.
Good if you want decent damage but your party comp, player skill or the fight itself prevents you from going for the riskier combinations. Solid all around, but don't particularly shine anywhere. Either can be MT, but PLD is preferred so GNB can focus on contributing to the damage.

WAR + DRK: A solid choice for controlled chaos enjoyers.
WAR's self-sustain allows DRK to shine as an OT and the healers to focus on that instead of scrambling to keep both tanks alive. DRK would still have to be aware of their healer's limitations and sacrifice some resources to provide support when appropriate, but generally this is a pretty safe combination to go for if you like damage and your healers actually like playing their role. Healer intervention will be higher simply because DRK needs that extra help, but otherwise it is very similar to WAR+GNB. A DRK that knows how to exploit their resources well can make this duo skip certain mechanics more consistently. There's no reason to have DRK as the MT in this situation, and you should not keep this duo in mind if the WAR can only play OT due to player preference.

WAR + GNB: Middle of the road combo. Simple and reliable.
They're both decent MTs, though it'd be best if WAR took the bigger hits using their self-sustain, which makes tank swaps few and far between unless the fight itself requires it. GNB's damage and WAR's CC could contribute to cheesing or skipping some mechs, but not as many as DRK+GNB (although they get it done much more safely)
Healer intervention is not necessarily kept at a minimum, but they can go into their DPS rotations for a while comfortably knowing neither of them is going to explode out of the blue.

DRK + GNB: Absolute chaos, healer PTSD & insane damage: The full package!
Healers can forget about their damage skills, they will be babysitting these two idiots + the rest of the party for the entire fight. GNB should be MT to allow DRK to play a bit riskier (they cannot play as risky as with other co-tanks, they must be aware that healers cannot babysit them as much) but tank swaps will be inevitable as GNB eventually runs out of things to mitigate with. Frenetic gameplay for the supports, and most likely not recommended unless you're skilled in the fight or the job itself, as there are many chances for things to go sideways and not many ways to recover unless your healers (and likely DRK, if they aren't the reason things went sideways in the first place) sacrifice everything in that effort. This comp would be the most likely to allow mech-skipping, being the ideal farming/reclear comp but punishing mistakes or poor gameplay harshly.

Job Rankings:

Complexity (or player skill needed) ranking:
1. DRK (high skill ceiling and higher risk involved. Your mistakes can kill you and you need healer intervention to reach your highest potential. When playing it as safe as possible, your damage output will be similar to PLD or WAR's)
2. GNB (busy rotation, must be aware of its limitations and party needs as recovery from mistakes is not as painless as PLD's)
3. PLD (very lenient with mistakes, recovery is usually easy)
4. WAR (if you can read your tooltips, you can play this job)

Damage output ranking:
1. DRK > GNB (DRK pouring more resources into damage, trying to play as risky as possible)
2. GNB > DRK (DRK playing it safe and pouring less resources into damage and more into boss debuffs/mits)
3. DRK > PLD > WAR (DRK playing it very safe)
4. WAR > PLD (bad PLDs, or PLDs who are very busy supporting their party are at the bottom of the ranking)

Party support ranking:
1. PLD, uncontested
2. DRK > GNB (DRK playing it safe and pouring less resources into damage and more into boss debuffs/mits)
3. GNB > DRK (DRK pouring more resources into damage)
4. WAR

Self-sustain ranking:
1. WAR, absolutely uncontested
2. PLD (can hold its ground for a while without healer intervention)
3. GNB (will eventually need healer intervention, but otherwise decent)
4. DRK (absolutely needs healer intervention if playing risky)

In short, each tank has "twin", and they're sorted into more or less extreme opposites.

Extreme opposites are DRK and PLD, both sacrificing their utility for damage and vice-versa. One can't succeed without their party's support, the other one does everything in their power to ensure their party's success.
Less extreme opposites are WAR and GNB. Do a bit less damage but never need healer help, or do a lot more damage but you'll eventually need a healer or your OT to save your butt.

Players can mix and match tank comps based on their needs and preferences for each fight, ideally!

But what if my favorite tank is too difficult for me to play!?
I dunno, man. But what we've got going on is not any better imho. I think this game has enough jobs for you to find something that suits you better, or the determination to play the job despite not being the best. You don't have to be the best at everything, as long as you're trying to improve and you're not actively grefing you're fine in my book.

Can't wait until Xeno finds this thread and grills us all for our "bad" takes. I love sharing my unhinged takes, even if they would never, ever be added to the game.

[Carighan]

But what if my favorite tank is too difficult for me to play!?

I mean from how you describe their setups and balances, that's not evident of difficulty yet, only of complexity. And complexity can be worked around with changes in difficulty. That is, those setups can still all be very easy to perform well with. Or all very easy to perform at all, but hyper-difficult to optimize. Or some this, some that. Doesn't have to be difficulty just because each tank works differently.

But I like those ideas, far less "whole re-implementation" than my weird takes, but a strong focus in each directly would work. I also like the idea of making Gunbreaker the "does its own thing" tank, it fits well with their more involved oGCD weaving from continuation conceptually.

Can't wait until Xeno finds this thread and grills us all for our "bad" takes.

Haha, nobody knows bad takes as well as Not-Ever-A-Single-Good-Take-Xeno.

[Shistar]

I mean from how you describe their setups and balances, that's not evident of difficulty yet, only of complexity. And complexity can be worked around with changes in difficulty. That is, those setups can still all be very easy to perform well with. Or all very easy to perform at all, but hyper-difficult to optimize. Or some this, some that. Doesn't have to be difficulty just because each tank works differently.

Yeah, that was my focus! Perhaps it's because I don't have any particular interest in the numbers and the parsing side of things. As long as the job feels good to play and it is not a death wish to bring it along, I am happy.
Of course, we all have different ideas of how a job should feel in order to be good, so I chose to focus on how they work together as pieces of a bigger puzzle. I had a lot of fun writing it.

But I like those ideas, far less "whole re-implementation" than my weird takes, but a strong focus in each directly would work.

Thanks for reading through it and commenting on the things that caught your eye! I think the key is in fostering different playstyles with the synergies, but somehow keeping it balanced enough so all of them work. I wish I was smart enough to offer that kind of solution. How would you approach it, using my idea as a base if you'd like?

I also like the idea of making Gunbreaker the "does its own thing" tank, it fits well with their more involved oGCD weaving from continuation conceptually.

Haha, yes! I wonder if it's because of all the GNBs I've met throughout my time playing, but it always feels like they're off in their own world, randomly coming back to us to throw us a Nebula and rushing back to their DPS rotation nonsense just as quickly (with affection towards GNBs)
It just doesn't feel like the type of tank who would be overly involved with the party, just here to get the job done, and how do you get the job done? By shooting the boss dead lol

Haha, nobody knows bad takes as well as Not-Ever-A-Single-Good-Take-Xeno.

LOL, I sometimes think he's completely out of his mind, but I do agree with him that this was pretty wholesome A friend let me know I showed up in one of his videos, I'm just glad he didn't grill me lol
Lately we've had this sprout who asks for tips with solo duties they're having trouble with, and it's the most wholesome thing ever. I love seeing them succeed.