Let us use PVP kits in PVE

[ty_taurus]

If I hadn't made it obvious already, I hate your PVE job design. I think it's absolutely unsalvageable. I'm sorry; that's pretty blunt, but it's also true. And I'll admit, I'm probably more on the extreme side of player reception to your PVE job design, but I'm certainly not alone when it comes to hating your PVE job design. But I'll also turn right around and say that I love your PVP job design. It's not perfect, but it's overall a world of difference from PVE job design.

Now, I'm sure you're aware of how much a fair amount of people hate your PVE job design too, but for whatever reason, it seems to be something you adamantly refuse to change. I have no idea what Yoshi P's recent statement about job design means because it could not use more enigmatic language, but I don't have much hope that the plans for the next expansion will be any better, so I'd like to propose a possible solution: allow us to use PVP job kits in certain areas of PVE content. I've not been subtle about having avoided DT completely entirely because of my refusal to tolerate years 5, 6, and 7 of the miserable glare-spam healer design, but If I had the option to use PVP healer kits with modified potencies for PVE, I would 100% resub to FFXIV to play through Dawntrail's story if I could do so in the following content:

Overworld Exploration and FATEs: If Blue Mage is allowed to run around without strings attached, there's no reason PVP job kits can't as well.

MSQ Instances: This content is entirely solo, so my choice to take a PVP kit has no impact on other players and I see no reason to restrict this.

Dungeons with Trusts/Squadrons: Again, if I'm clearing the dungeon solo, my PVP kit will have no impact on other players.

Deep Dungeons: Use a separate high score system from PVE job kits, but Deep Dungeons are the perfect environment for PVP kits.

Field Operations: This might be a tougher sell, but seeing what kind of shenanigans were made possible by lost actions and phantom jobs, I don't see an issue in allowing PVP kits to go crazy here as well.

I'll repeat... If I had the option to use a PVP healer instead of the absolutely horrible PVE healers, I would resub the second that patch dropped. Of course, this is not a proper solution to the state of job design in FFXIV, but it is a fairly easy one that would require little effort to accomplish, relatively speaking. You already have the kits. You'd just need to address potencies, perhaps allow for Role Actions, and maybe a couple extra things like tank stance, Raise, etc, and then add the proper UI in the menu. But I don't see why an update like this couldn't be ready by even 7.4.5, maybe even earlier. You must be trying to think of ways to keep people subbed for the next year, right? I'll admit, I'm just one person, but I have a suspicion there's a handful of people who might stay subbed longer or resub to at least give it a try. It might just be worth it.

[mallleable]

Give BRD, and MCH walking casts like they do in PVP please!!

[BokoToloko]

PVP is fun because it's not a bunch of scripted encounters and has some actual variability thanks to human behavior completely taking the wheel, not because the job design is amazing.

Trying to merge even more simplified and role-dilluted kits (healers are even more green DPS in PvP) into inflexible, scripted and (somewhat) dependant on roles content will only make those who were fine with PvE kits despise the content and those who prefer PvP despise it even more. Not to mention that, in case of PvP Healer kits, they would be a massive hindrance in a large part of PvE because they don't have anywhere near the same healing input (most of the healing going on comes from Recuperate and the Elixir. not from healer input)

Give BRD, and MCH walking casts like they do in PVP please!!

Give cast times back to SMN. Gun and Bow Mage can stay dead, PvE wise.

[ty_taurus]

PVP is fun because it's not a bunch of scripted encounters and has some actual variability thanks to human behavior completely taking the wheel, not because the job design is amazing.

Trying to merge even more simplified and role-dilluted kits (healers are even more green DPS in PvP) into inflexible, scripted and (somewhat) dependant on roles content will only make those who were fine with PvE kits despise the content and those who prefer PvP despise it even more. Not to mention that, in case of PvP Healer kits, they would be a massive hindrance in a large part of PvE because they don't have anywhere near the same healing input (most of the healing going on comes from Recuperate and the Elixir. not from healer input)


Give cast times back to SMN. Gun and Bow Mage can stay dead, PvE wise.

Hence why the suggestion only specifies content where either you're alone so you can't "bother" others by doing it, or where roles don't matter anyway.

[ASkellington]

For some classes this would work. For others... nah.

[ServerCollaps]

theres a lot of "casual" people that cant even handle the current designs xd

They trivialize classes for a reason ^^;

[ty_taurus]

theres a lot of "casual" people that cant even handle the current designs xd

They trivialize classes for a reason ^^;

Nothing I love more than being punished for the perceived incompetence of other people. Why does my experience have to suffer because a caricature of the community is seen as not able to handle a cone AOE or a 2 second cast time?

[Valence]

Of course, this is not a proper solution to the state of job design in FFXIV, but it is a fairly easy one that would require little effort to accomplish, relatively speaking. You already have the kits. You'd just need to address potencies, perhaps allow for Role Actions, and maybe a couple extra things like tank stance, Raise, etc, and then add the proper UI in the menu. But I don't see why an update like this couldn't be ready by even 7.4.5, maybe even earlier.

Considering that even for something like chat bubbles or certain playable species' hats it took them five years, or seeing that to change anything even more than superficially they generally ask you to wait for the next expansion, I'd not consider this "easy" by their standards. But I'd very much like it.

PVP is fun because it's not a bunch of scripted encounters and has some actual variability thanks to human behavior completely taking the wheel, not because the job design is amazing.

Trying to merge even more simplified and role-dilluted kits (healers are even more green DPS in PvP) into inflexible, scripted and (somewhat) dependant on roles content will only make those who were fine with PvE kits despise the content and those who prefer PvP despise it even more. Not to mention that, in case of PvP Healer kits, they would be a massive hindrance in a large part of PvE because they don't have anywhere near the same healing input (most of the healing going on comes from Recuperate and the Elixir. not from healer input)

There is a bit of both actually. Unscripted and unpredictable pvp is one side of it, but the pvp job kits and the battle system used there is also another facet of what makes pvp what it is, else without it you'd have the same boring pve slop than in pve if every job was a boring copy of each other and the only metric was damage.

Give cast times back to SMN. Gun and Bow Mage can stay dead, PvE wise.

Agreed, walked casts on BRD/MCH aren't what makes those work in pvp either, much like cast times on the PCT filler aren't either. If it was on something else than the fillers, we would be talking, but I also suspect that everybody would shun those jobs in an environment like pvp if you actually had to cast the skills that matter like FMF, Scattergun, Drill, Apex/Blast, Comet, Prism, etc.
Wast times on pvp fillers are pure fluff and class identity.

theres a lot of "casual" people that cant even handle the current designs xd

They trivialize classes for a reason ^^;

Worked perfectly fine in HW with the hardest pve designs this game has had. I see no reason to constantly bring up this strawman because this ain't about playing perfectly in your last ultimate, chief.

[Jeeqbit]

I remember when PvE and PvP attacks were the same. They had to include the PvP potency or effects in the PvE tooltips. But an issue with it is just how it bloats the tooltips.

Worked perfectly fine in HW with the hardest pve designs this game has had. I see no reason to constantly bring up this strawman because this ain't about playing perfectly in your last ultimate, chief.

I don't entirely agree. In Heavensward and Stormblood, I couldn't shake the feeling that there were tanks that "believed" in using tank stance 100% of the time, and tanks that "believed" in using DPS stance almost all the time if not 100% of the time. This split didn't seemed the least bit healthy for the game, because how do you balance content when you have two polar opposite types of tanks dealing significantly different amounts of damage? This was compounded by the tank stance tanks sometimes actually being really bad - for example, spamming 1 button, or using an enmity combo 100% of the time so they weren't applying DoTs or anything.

Then there was a Summoner I met that, according to others, was not doing much damage at all. While they might get away with that in a dungeon, it still demonstrated that the jobs were so complicated for some players that they hardly did any damage whatsoever.

Then there is Dark Knight. I played that very well (somehow) and it was a lot of fun, but while playing it I always thought to myself "there is no way most people will play this correctly".

I had this feeling that they needed to make them at least moderately more intuitive so your average dungeon players were actually playing them relatively decently. Obviously, they went overboard with this. I meant that it should be, say, intuitive 75% of the way but then have room for skill expression after that. Instead, you have it like Warrior and Dark Knight are now, where it's hard not to be a resilient tank as a WAR, and DRK literally can just press everything off cooldown and that's it, so the skill expression barely exists. And I don't need to explain Summoner.

[Garruss]

No thanks, I would not want to use PVP kits on the main game. They suit pvp and compared to the main game I find rather boring to play