What is wrong about making machinist good?

[Valence]

While I agree the whole ranged physical role dps should be upped, a lot. I don't understand this argument about specifically selffish dps. Being selfish or not is already included in rDPS. And MCH has very competitive rDPS compared to other jobs in the same role. If anything, I think it feels much more unfair for classes that do bring raid buffs and, only to see their rDPS contribution bottom of the barrel.

Well it comes from inner intricacies of the metrics used to compare jobs within their own subrole, within which they do compete against each other. BRD and DNC are heavily slanted toward raid damage buffs that amount for close to a quarter of their total rDPS/cDPS contribution. This means that they're going to be very dependent of their team to perform optimally, and that's also why even before the recent buffs MCH wasn't doing that bad in lower percentiles.

On the other hand at higher level MCH cannot follow because MCH doesn't have the pDPS output to keep up with melees or BLM/PCT, simply because having a lower pDPS output than those, it will mathematically not benefit as much as them from raid damage buffs and play as well within those than them. You also don't dance partner a MCH usually for the same reason.

This turns it at low level or percentiles as a valued job that can carry its own weight, especially light parties and even more in solo (notably with a huge upfront damage), but at a higher percentiles that's lacking because it's not working within the same parameters as BRD and DNC as a heavy raid buffer. Well, that is, before the recent buffs, which definitely put BRD and DNC behind even at high percentiles, because rphys as a subrole is meant to suck alongside SMN/RDM, that's about it.

[aiqa]

Well it comes from inner intricacies of the metrics

That would hold up if MCH was always lower at top or 95th percentile rDPS. But at least at the moment it is not. At half the current tier MCH top rDPS is shared best in the rphys role, and highest at 95th percentile in 3/4.

And even if we ignore current tier. It's not a clear argument for why MCH needs to perform better. The dependance on other players is an indirect job difficulty, which MCH doesn't have. And that added difficulty should be rewarded, not penalized.

[brinn12]

That would hold up if MCH was always lower at top or 95th percentile rDPS. But at least at the moment it is not. At half the current tier MCH top rDPS is shared best in the rphys role, and highest at 95th percentile in 3/4.

And even if we ignore current tier. It's not a clear argument for why MCH needs to perform better. The dependance on other players is an indirect job difficulty, which MCH doesn't have. And that added difficulty should be rewarded, not penalized.

I'd wait for the next tier before judging. Being ahead in Savage during odd patches doesn't mean much, especially since the job has nothing to do in downtime and relies heavily on fight design to function in odd-patch Ultimates. Machinist was ahead of Dancer in Savage during 7.1, but it still had a terrible time in FRU. After that, it arguably had its worst fight since the rework, which was M6S. The fact of the matter is that MCH was a bad pick for both tiers and the Ultimate. Being decent for just 1/3 of an expansion means the job is being neglected. This is Endwalker all over again.

[aiqa]

I'd wait for the next tier before judging. Being ahead in Savage during odd patches doesn't mean much, especially since the job has nothing to do in downtime and relies heavily on fight design to function in odd-patch Ultimates. Machinist was ahead of Dancer in Savage during 7.1, but it still had a terrible time in FRU. After that, it arguably had its worst fight since the rework, which was M6S. The fact of the matter is that MCH was a bad pick for both tiers and the Ultimate. Being decent for just 1/3 of an expansion means the job is being neglected. This is Endwalker all over again.

Alright. But MCH is obviously the strongest rphys job right now. So why do we get a thread complaining about how specifically MCH needs to be buffed. How much stronger does MCH need to be than BRD and DNC before it's good enough?

[brinn12]

Alright. But MCH is obviously the strongest rphys job right now. So why do we get a thread complaining about how specifically MCH needs to be buffed. How much stronger does MCH need to be than BRD and DNC before it's good enough?

If SE thinks the job is strong, they'll buff DNC and BRD, meaning MCH would be strong only for an odd patch without a new Ultimate fight.

MCH is likely evenly balanced with the other ranged. Many good players have abandoned this tier completely, with the current BiS being useless. As I've said, we should wait until the next tier to make any conclusions, which Patch 7.1 / 7.2 already taught us. Until then, these threads should exist to highlight what has been happening over the long term.

[Valence]

Alright. But MCH is obviously the strongest rphys job right now. So why do we get a thread complaining about how specifically MCH needs to be buffed. How much stronger does MCH need to be than BRD and DNC before it's good enough?

I think there is a conflation of many complaints about the job among which the inconsistent dps output/model is only one of them. A lot of people's griefs with the job are also directly aimed at the actual class design and mechanics where a lot of very common complaints have been recurring for ages (no aoe battery, flamethrower conflicting with the rest of the kit on heat generation, no charges regen from autocrossbow, no AoE nor crit on WF, no kit interactions whatsoever, etc).

[Reginald_Cain]

That would hold up if MCH was always lower at top or 95th percentile rDPS. But at least at the moment it is not. At half the current tier MCH top rDPS is shared best in the rphys role, and highest at 95th percentile in 3/4.

And even if we ignore current tier. It's not a clear argument for why MCH needs to perform better. The dependance on other players is an indirect job difficulty, which MCH doesn't have. And that added difficulty should be rewarded, not penalized.

I'm really tired of the other phys ranged holding machinist hostage. They need to abolish the current party composition system that forces 1 phys, 1 caster, 1-2 melee and reintroduce something like piercing down on dragoon.
to make comps with a supportive phys ranged like the bard and a selfish phys ranged like machinist viable again. The phys ranged as a role are in a terrible place with no cohesive identity. I'd rather machinist be balanced around samurai and black mage instead of bard and dancer. Make the 4th phys ranged selfish too so we have an even split. Reaper, black mage and samurai have plenty of movement tools and selfish phys ranged should not be knee capped to the point they can't compete with them. I don't want machinist to replace bard and dancer in every party, I want it to be strong and viable as a selfish dps who can use the bard songs and dancer partner as effectively as other selfish dps.