Nerf Warrior (please)

[A-Omega]

Honestly this is why Warrior self healing is so stupid compared to the other tanks.

Don't get me wrong, I still love my gunbreaker but I honestly might want to level a warrior next.

The original version was the best version. True, it had its flaws but the concept was super fun with an extremely high skill ceiling.

[A-Omega]

It's a dumb reason though. That design was almost a decade ago. And even in 7.0 WAR got buffs to its healing.

Regardless of it being a dumb reason, it’s still true. SE and Yoshi P have a thing with breaking things then slapping a bandaid on it like that makes things better

[Absurdity]

This topic again…time for the way back when machine.

For those who don’t know…WAR is in this position because of changes SE made to its original concept. PLD’s/DRK’s tank stance had mit built into it while WAR’s didn’t. WAR’s tank stance increased hp and healing received. All mitigation came from gear and cds. The health on hit was to compensate for the lack of base mitigation. Even the old defensives played into to the kill it before it kills you mentally…ie Raw Intuition being a parry for all damage coming from the front but a crit for damage from the flanks/rear. This is also why WAR did more damage than other tanks. Add in a dps stance that removed your bonus health/healing and damage healing made even more sense.

What the complaint SHOULD be is, “Revert WAR to its original concept and work out whatever kinks made them decide to change it”. Maybe I’ll make that a post again.

You're touching on an important part of old Warrior design that seemingly has been lost to the devs.

In both it's original 2.0 inception and from Heavensward onward the job always had strong self-healing, but it came at a cost.

In 2.0 it was at the cost of it's defensive capabilities, which simply didn't work with how the rest of the game was designed.
But in Heavensward and Stormblood it was at the cost of your damage output.
You had to decide whether you wanted to heal yourself with Equilibrium or restore your TP and whether you wanted the healing and mitigation from Inner Beast or spend those resources on Fell Cleave with it's much higher damage.

You could quite easily keep yourself alive in Stormblood by poppping Inner Release and spamming IB 5 times to heal yourself back up, but it would cost you a major cooldown that you could've used for more damage.

And then come Shadowbringers they decided to just make it free all the time, only limited by it's own cooldown.
This opportunity cost and decision making needs to return, not just for Warrior.

[Supersnow845]

You're touching on an important part of old Warrior design that seemingly has been lost to the devs.

In both it's original 2.0 inception and from Heavensward onward the job always had strong self-healing, but it came at a cost.

In 2.0 it was at the cost of it's defensive capabilities, which simply didn't work with how the rest of the game was designed.
But in Heavensward and Stormblood it was at the cost of your damage output.
You had to decide whether you wanted to heal yourself with Equilibrium or restore your TP and whether you wanted the healing and mitigation from Inner Beast or spend those resources on Fell Cleave with it's much higher damage.

You could quite easily keep yourself alive in Stormblood by poppping Inner Release and spamming IB 5 times to heal yourself back up, but it would cost you a major cooldown that you could've used for more damage.

And then come Shadowbringers they decided to just make it free all the time, only limited by it's own cooldown.
This opportunity cost and decision making needs to return, not just for Warrior.

It’s a design many would like to see return but many also wouldn’t

Just look at the single (SINGLE) class left in the game that has opportunity cost as its core design; SCH. A class that’s beloved by its ardent supporters but a proverbial pariah amongst almost everyone else

As much as you and me and others here want is do we really have a lot of evidence that it’s a widely held want when SCH could easily hold claim to the most divisive class in the game

Just for the record I’m not saying you are wrong in any way just considering

[A-Omega]

You're touching on an important part of old Warrior design that seemingly has been lost to the devs.

In both it's original 2.0 inception and from Heavensward onward the job always had strong self-healing, but it came at a cost.

In 2.0 it was at the cost of it's defensive capabilities, which simply didn't work with how the rest of the game was designed.
But in Heavensward and Stormblood it was at the cost of your damage output.
You had to decide whether you wanted to heal yourself with Equilibrium or restore your TP and whether you wanted the healing and mitigation from Inner Beast or spend those resources on Fell Cleave with it's much higher damage.

You could quite easily keep yourself alive in Stormblood by poppping Inner Release and spamming IB 5 times to heal yourself back up, but it would cost you a major cooldown that you could've used for more damage.

And then come Shadowbringers they decided to just make it free all the time, only limited by it's own cooldown.
This opportunity cost and decision making needs to return, not just for Warrior.

What you talking about is “identify” and “uniqueness”. It was definitely flawed. That goes without saying, but completely dismantling the job clearly hasn’t worked either. All WAR needed was better defensives and possibly a bit of utility to fit perfectly along side the other tanks. Ironically…SE gave that as they tore the job apart.

Simple fix…remove the negatives from raw intuition, add shake it off, and you’re done.

Another point you made the isn’t supported by the game’s reality…SE removed damage because the job has self sustain. PLD literally has the strongest healing spell. PLD also has better damage and a ton of utility. PLD is also why the offensive stance was frowned upon. It increased DRK/WAR but PLD only got auto attack speed increase. An easy fix for that…remove the stance from the other jobs. Allow PLD to be a defensive utility powerhouse and allow DRK to be bridge between the two.

I am a WAR main. The invincibility everyone claims existed, didn’t. Sure you flexed on the other tanks in big pulls, but you were always on death’s doorstep. A single mistimed input and you were dead. As MT, your lack of proper mitigation was another massive skill hurdle. It required fight knowledge to know when you used your mitigation because you had no more then the one actual skill (especially if you didn’t level PLD for rampart).

I’m actually enjoying this conversation by the way. I appreciate you guys for actually having an intelligent conversation with intelligent points. It’s rare on the forums.

[A-Omega]

I also have to say this part…

Those who want a return to form are the people who mastered the high risk/high reward play style or at the least understood it. The people complaining either do so out of jealousy because WAR out performed their chosen job (in certain situations because the grass is always greener on the other side) or they didn’t invest the time to get good at the job. Both are player problems not developer problems. Yoshi P advertised a 10 year plan for the game. If he intended for the game to exist that long, why isn’t player growth a consideration? People being able to pick up the game an instantly be great because the game is so easy, doesn’t support long term play. Stripping aspects form one job to pander to another doesn’t support it either.

Jobs should be designed to be accessible at entry with a high skill ceiling for those who master the job. A sprout to a job shouldn’t be anywhere near as job as someone who “mains” it. Being totally honest, saying main anything has completely lost its value in the current state of the game. Jobs should be approachable for everyone, but not every job should appeal to everyone either. Job design and uniqueness should draw people to it (along with the concept it embodies). That’s something else SE has failed at horribly by mixing jobs in the pursuit of random “uniqueness” for ff14. Ie…bard being a fusion between archer and bard instead of both being separate jobs. Machinist being gunslinger and technomancer instead of providing a unique experience that appeals to both halves equally.

I apologize for going a bit off topic there. What I was originally saying was telling the player to practice, isn’t a bad thing. If Yoshi P can take an against instanced housing, new races, butt sliders (lol) why not take a stance on players needing to devote time to being better at a game he’s intending us to play for 10 years? Sure some people will be rubbed wrong actually having to put in effort, but regardless of them, the game would be in a healthier place. This complaint wouldn’t exist if they hadn’t changed WAR for the worse. Healers would still be begging me to take it easy on them instead lol.

[Carighan]

I'll be honest, I always feel old when I read how FFXIV old-timers say they miss something like "back when jobs needed skill" or "back when we had high risk / high reward gameplay".

You might need to look across the pond more. What you long for as better class design is just a different flavor of bad class design other MMOs have long tried out, abolished because it didn't work either (same as FFXIV in that regard), and/or copied these results from existing long-running MMOs like WoW, DAoC or EQ1 or so to then avoid stepping into the issues.

That is, Warrior has a lot of design flaws now. No, it didn't have fewer in past days, just different ones. Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel, just crib aggressively from other games, because they handily made the mistakes already so later devs can avoid them. Want a self-healing I-take-the-damage-then-reheal-it tank? Hey luckily for the FFXIV devs, WoW had like 15 iterations of Blood Death Knight already so you can just look at every single design element and why it survived or didn't survive iterating on this design! Want a hyper-aggressive unstoppable juggernaut? Look no further than all the ways WoW's Fury Warrior or GW2's entire Warrior class didn't work out in many regards, and avoid committing the same mistakes!

On a further tangent, I find the notion that every job needs a high skill ceiling but low skill floor to be cool, but also a bit pointless: If this were a decision you could "just make", no game would ever release diverging from this. There's no downside to this utopian design, so there is never a reason not to do this. Since most games don't do this, it is clearly evident that it is hard~impossible to design this consistently.

[Supersnow845]

I mean if you have a job that’s a 3/10 and the devs change it to a 1/10 then wanting the 3/10 back isn’t wrong just because another game has a similar class design intent that is a 7/10

I also wouldn’t say it’s wrong to say only wanting the 3/10 back at the exclusion of all others is also wrong but I don’t think that’s anywhere near as common as the former

[DivineP]

Huh there's a 10000 thread on why healers want to be relevant. Wonder why

[DivineP]

When this gets needed I'm going to laugh