Red Mage idea

[Duelle]

Hybrids should be able to fill a role in a party (as a dedicated healer or dedicated DD) if they're going to have a purpose. It's a matter of resource management on the developers part.

This isn't WoW, class stacking and the problems that arose from "hybrids vs pure" won't be drastic since everyone can switch jobs.

Well, it causes one problem to not surface but creates another: class stacking and jobism.

The trade-off in the quantitative gains from having a RDM in place of a DRG or MNK has to be minimal, because if it isn't and players can figure a way to reduce the job to cure/buff-bitch again, you can bet they'll do it.

The WoW hybrid vs pure thing was more ego-driven than anything else, because the rogues, warlocks, mages and hunters that were guaranteed DPS spots in raids suddenly found their curebitches (AKA the hybrids) could suddenly measure up and compete with them for those spots.

[Ashenspire]

The WoW hybrid vs pure thing was more ego-driven than anything else, because the rogues, warlocks, mages and hunters that were guaranteed DPS spots in raids suddenly found their curebitches (AKA the hybrids) could suddenly measure up and compete with them for those spots.

Rogues, Warlocks, Mages and Hunters could ONLY fill those roles, whereas Paladins, Druids, Warriors, Death Knights and Shamans could fill 2-3 depending on class. Anyone worth talking to never said they wanted to absolutely stomp hybrid classes on the DPS meters, but that in equal gear/skill levels, the pure DPS would come out on top. For awhile, that wasn't the case.

[Duelle]

Rogues, Warlocks, Mages and Hunters could ONLY fill those roles, whereas Paladins, Druids, Warriors, Death Knights and Shamans could fill 2-3 depending on class.

And the guys that wanted to play as those other roles were effectively screwed out of them. I was there, so I remember pre-WotLK class dynamics. If you were a Paladin you were always healing. If you were a warrior you were always tanking.

Anyone worth talking to never said they wanted to absolutely stomp hybrid classes on the DPS meters, but that in equal gear/skill levels, the pure DPS would come out on top. For awhile, that wasn't the case.

Believe it or not, I am fine with minor discrepancies. I liked the idea of the mythical 5% from WotLK, because it prevented raid leaders and the community as a whole from making stupid assumptions like "the pure should always get the DPS spot because that hybrid deals less DPS". That alone was enough to "fool" the masses, even if the number crunchers could find the difference in performance.

Either way, we're restricted by the armoury system, so I expect the job to be built around the weapon, with the skills and spells complimenting the fact RDM is a melee mage. That, however, doesn't mean we shouldn't be wary of ideas that give birth to idiocy from the community.

[Virin]

First, I am amazed the discussion is still going. Cool. Lots of good debate and ideas flowing. Too bad no one with any say will read it.

What I hope for in 2.0 is the ability to need these utility classes. Need isn't quite the right term but hear me out. What I'd like to see is that in the end game content you could go in with your "true" classes and do fine but it would be safer or maybe less stressful if you had a util class with you who could jump on any role needed at that moment.

This idea leads to a small % of people who say "Hybrids are bad and you're bad for using one." <--- I should make a meme for that



and done

ok back to the point. I am a huge fan of the util, hybrid class. Now, of course I usual roll tank jobs. That's what I do but I also have a hybrid because those tend to be more fun. The pure jobs to me = spam a couple skills over and over again until mobs die and move to next. When I play hybrid classes I am always watching for something else to happen. Take Pally in WoW. The original pally the pre-OP heal-bot no dps pally. Somehow I was able to take that into raids and if an OT went down or someone leeroy'd an area I could pick up the adds, if healers were struggling I could help, and the whole time I was attacking.
FFXI- same thing but with RDM. I was in the front row smacking things in the face the whole time I was haste botting and healing. It isn't hard if you can multitask and I think that is where the "bad player" comes from. I think so many people hate on hybrid players because a lot of them can't multitask that job and instead can only play it like they would play a pure class... spam a couple skills.

I for one don't want to see in 2.0 a 2h tank, whm and the rest of the party be blm for everything endgame. I will never, EVER understand how a 2h class is a tank that is poor design. If they wanted war to be tank they should have allowed them 1h axe and shields for tanking and 2h axe for DD. I don't want it to be a wow clone nor do i want it to be easy but I would like to see more of a utility desire and definately more variety in the game. It would be nice to be able to do the content with a pld as a tank or a war as a tank, with a blm dd and/or melee dd. i don't even like the brd class nor plan on playing it but I would like to see them shine as more than a buffer and never see "loldmg" used in forums again.

[SwordCoheir]

Thing about FFXI's RDM is it had tons of things working against it, here's a few that are just the tip of the iceberg.

-Magic and Melee did not work cohesively like with BLU
-Staves became required due to their benefits pretty much overshadowing anything RDM got from Swords and Daggers, and since swapping weapons meant lost TP it threw weapon swapping out of the equation.
-Stagnation, oh Lord did they let RDM grow stagnant. No unique Enfeebles outside of merits and lolGravity II, all new buffs are self-buff, no worthwhile new spells or abilities to contribute to party play, everything worth a damn is obtained through sub-job (yes literally everything).

But there are some things that FFXIV would bring to RDM that would help deter the follies of FFXI's RDM.

-Armoury System, means we'd wear a fencing or rapier type weapon full time.
-The limitations on the amount of abilities and weaponskills obtainable would give way to some creative ways to combine aspects of RDM such as WS>WS>Spell combos or Magical WS combos (Think Stiner's Magic Sword abilities from FF9).
-The power of spells and abilities scale with your level, effectively eliminating the need to have more than a few tiers of magic and the BS skill system that plauged FFXI's RDM.
-RDM technically is somewhat pre-designed with pre-1.19's Thaumatarge, and could easily benefit from using some of the removed spells like Scourge, Banish, and Sacrifice, or using some of them as a basis in the design for RDM.

But I digress, the limitations with the Armoury system are actually a good thing in the end, it restricts what you can really do with jobs and classes, so you have to think with job/spell slot limits in mind and how that would work for or against a job. Like if they just gave RDM a Single WS combo, Single Magic combo, and a few spells here and there it would probably be Underpowered not being able to dedicate itself fully to a role. Now if you gave RDM a three or four Magic WS combos or WS combos with a spell finisher or a stance ability to turn your magic WS's into long ranged nukes that might put RDM in a bit more lovable position even if they scale back the raw damage of their abilities and spells a little.

[TaalAzura]

Well, on top of giving RDM the other 3 en- spells that MNK doesn't have, you could also have RDM take skills from CNJ (sacred prism) so that it can buff the entire party. Giving it haste/refresh might be overpowered, but giving the whole party enthunder would be quit beneficial. Obviously skills like fists of fire would over-ride the sacred prism+en-spell combo.

EDIT: Also giving RDM Phalanx/Temper/Bar-spells could make the class useful while still contributing to fights by fighting melee.

[Eremor]

Well, on top of giving RDM the other 3 en- spells that MNK doesn't have, you could also have RDM take skills from CNJ (sacred prism) so that it can buff the entire party. Giving it haste/refresh might be overpowered, but giving the whole party enthunder would be quit beneficial. Obviously skills like fists of fire would over-ride the sacred prism+en-spell combo.

EDIT: Also giving RDM Phalanx/Temper/Bar-spells could make the class useful while still contributing to fights by fighting melee.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...860#post709860

I choose not to make En-spells able to be cast on other players since I think that would cut in to some of the uniqueness of the RDM in melee (and possibly make it more efficient to simply have the RDM buff the party from the back lines). But Aoe Temper and Barrier I think would be a nice contribution.

[Onisake]

Ok so I am bored at work and had an idea. Here is the TL,DR version of it.

Red Mage - GLD/THM
Tank class that uses enfeebling magic, en-spells (enthunder,fire, etc) for enmity generation, and THM spells for extra dps.
Lower def than PLD but higher dps to counter that

Make warrior a true DD (they are a 2h class after all)

Now I am biased because I love RDM and tank classes but I think it would be a cool idea


/discuss

I wouldnt' mind RDM being a tank. but what does it really gain from THM?

Thunder (but no combo)
fire (but no combo)
Necrogenesis (small HP gain back from Thunder or fire)
Dark Seal (less resist on the 2 spells you can cast)
Resonance (pulling?)
Sanguine Rite (arguably the only useful subskill)

the opportunity cost of casting damage spells is huge. you're likely to do more damage (and generate more hate) with your sword combos than wasting time casting fire or thunder. (except for AoE hate from fire i guess)

if you were to throw in CNJ it becomes too close to PLD. pretty much swapping THM for MRD. and then you have to worry about sacred prism => enspell being abused.

as far as lore, it would make most sense to have GLA with THM/CNJ subs to be rdm. but you have so many skills that aren't useful i have to question what good this job could do aside from it's 5 job abilities. CNJ is arguably a far better sub than THM. but to fit the traditional RDM you'd need all 3. white magic, black magic, and melee.

Make Fencer the main class and GLD/THM the sub classes with THM as main sub class.
The weapon should be more the rapier style instead of a sword, I think.
Because the red mages are similar to the "3 musketeer" from the appearance to me ^^

similar to above GLA doesn't give a lot of useful sub traits. they are either exclusive to GLA or require you to first block with a shield. also i question why even add a seperate single handed sword class when GLA already fulfills that role. you're better off reworking the shield abilities to have a dual purpose (with and without shield) and just give GLA access to rapier style weapons.


-----------------

GLA as it is can only spawn a support or tank class due to many of it's abilities dependence on shield and blocking with said shield. so a major revamp to these abilities is needed before we can really think of branching out.

I also feel that a fencer class overlaps too much with GLA. as GLA can be fixed to serve the same purpose. and it's less work for the devs. I'd rather see a katana class introduced to spawn nin and sam. rather than a fencer. but if we keep with the one class one job pattern obviously fencer will be needed. But i don't think it is:

I feel rapiers are more 'thrust' and 'pierce' weapons. using LNC as a base is far more viable to bring RDM a stronger DD stance. a single handed option for LNC is not out of the question considering that GSWD is viable for GLA.

not to mention you could make RDM enfeeble based due to PIE being a main stat of LNC. sub THM/CNJ for additional spell utility and access to white/black magic.

THM would would help increase potency/range for when RDM wants to be more backline (resonance, dark seal, etc.) sanguine right helps RDM when wanting to melee. CNJ gives access to cure, SS, and Sacred Prism rounding out the class. lancer's thrust based WSs also make more sense for rapiers. Life/Power surge also give some extra utility to the class given certain situations.

job Abilities could include Scourge, Dia, bio, etc. to give it more of an enfeebling feel.

30: Bio DoT, lowers attack of target
35: Dia DoT Lowers defense of target
40: En-XXXXX changes physical attacks to XXXXX element
45: XXXXX-spike Upon taking physical damage, target takes XXXX elemental damage OR an ability that makes next attack/enfeeble spell AoE
50: fast cast - drastically reduces cast time of spells.

woudl have access to 4 elemental spells: fire, thunder, aero, stone. could potentially AoE any of those and apply the enfeebles from Aero and Stone.

3 DoT moves: Aero, Bio, Dia to supplement magic damage

Access to Lancers WSs and combos for melee damage.

access to Cure, Protect, SS and Sacred Prism as well as an en spell and a spike spell to round out defensive utility.

RDM then has a choice on focusing on enfeeble potency, damage potency, or enhancing potency.

[TaalAzura]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...860#post709860

I choose not to make En-spells able to be cast on other players since I think that would cut in to some of the uniqueness of the RDM in melee (and possibly make it more efficient to simply have the RDM buff the party from the back lines). But Aoe Temper and Barrier I think would be a nice contribution.

If the only buff it had was the ones i suggested, gearing it for anything but melee would be a waste of resources (unless the en- spells were enhanced by mnd, but if it's a straight elemental effect than there would be no need for non-DPS gear).

[Duelle]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...860#post709860

Best.RDMThread. Ever.

I choose not to make En-spells able to be cast on other players since I think that would cut in to some of the uniqueness of the RDM in melee (and possibly make it more efficient to simply have the RDM buff the party from the back lines). But Aoe Temper and Barrier I think would be a nice contribution.

I may be able to get behind Temper and Barrier, but under certain conditions. 1) Instant cast. This is non-negotiable. 2a) Affects all party members regardless of how far they are from the RDM. 100 yalm radius would also work. or 2b) Aura-type effect that originates from the RDM. If I had my way, I'd make it so the RDM gets the full benefit of the buff and everyone else gets the buff at 80% potency.