Red Mage idea

[Duelle]

It's more towards the importance of utility, which Red Mage is based off of. Though you know, people that don't understand the importance of utility "tend to be bad players."

Utility is nice, but there's a line to be drawn for it. XI's Red Mage felt more like the bastard child of a time mage and oracle rather than a Red Mage. Some even called it Pink Mage based on how people used the job.

[Ashenspire]

1) I was being sarcastic. Sorry you didn't pick it up.

2) What Utility is necessary in this game that isn't already there? Yeah, RDMs could make mobs more vulnerable to, say, lightning damage, but they'd have to A) increase all the other BLMs damage and B) do enough damage themselves to make it worthwhile, otherwise you'd just bring another BLM instead. Sure, RDMs would probably be able to spot heal as well, but again, between PLD, BRD, and WHM, there's already enough spot healing.

Yes, I understand everything is up for grabs in ARR, but a lot of people get stuck in this "They're hybrids and should be able to do everything okay" instead of "They're a mix of magic and physical, but they do this one thing ridiculously well that makes them invaluable." The "iconic" Red Mage never did this.

[Dawiichan]

Utility is nice, but there's a line to be drawn for it. XI's Red Mage felt more like the bastard child of a time mage and oracle rather than a Red Mage. Some even called it Pink Mage based on how people used the job.

Don't get me wrong, I thought RDM in XI was done extremely wrong. However that doesn't mean that keeping the same essence = automatically XI RDM.

1) I was being sarcastic. Sorry you didn't pick it up.

2) What Utility is necessary in this game that isn't already there? Yeah, RDMs could make mobs more vulnerable to, say, lightning damage, but they'd have to A) increase all the other BLMs damage and B) do enough damage themselves to make it worthwhile, otherwise you'd just bring another BLM instead. Sure, RDMs would probably be able to spot heal as well, but again, between PLD, BRD, and WHM, there's already enough spot healing.

Yes, I understand everything is up for grabs in ARR, but a lot of people get stuck in this "They're hybrids and should be able to do everything okay" instead of "They're a mix of magic and physical, but they do this one thing ridiculously well that makes them invaluable." The "iconic" Red Mage never did this.

1) You need to learn how to use sarcasm on your writing. Lacking on how to use it is not useful since it's already hard to read it from someone that knows how to.

2) That's the thing, you lack different understanding of utility than bringing a "unique" thing to the party. A BLM can magic DD, a Bard can support, a DRG can physical DD. However they are locked to that certain aspect to their character(except bard which only does loldmg on higher end content). However, having the ability to play multiple roles has already been proven as useful. Take monk for example. The job can do both Magical/Physical DD. Use it in Garuda, it automatically becomes a Chirada/Suprana bane. However it's a given that BLM will deal more magical damage than a monk does. You don't have to be superior in a single aspect to be invaluable.

I mean, your statement is flawed just by the aspects you've stated. My guess is that you are an FFXI player because you're bringing up the horrible RDM playstyle which FFXI had. Why is it that RDM has to only be a support/healer? It completely ignores the other two roles which it is supposed to also carry, which is damage dealing with both physical and magical damage.

Considering the fact that Jobs will be locked on certain content (such as hamlet and skirmish). Then the fact that you sign up on Content Finder as a certain job, the ability to have access to multiple playstyles (Chirada/Suprana, or Nael Hard mode) can easily become extremely valuable.

[Ashenspire]

Actually, I've never played FFXI. My point is, if it's a hybrid, it can't be a "carry", as you've so put it, otherwise why bring pure DD classes that bring none of the so-called Utility you speak of? RDM would be something similar to Paladin in WoW. The slightest changes/nerfs/buffs to the class itself can manifest in horrendous overpowered/underpowered performance in a hybrid class. In order for RDM to be viable, yes they will have their rapiers and their magic, but they're not going to, and honestly shouldn't be able to, out DD a DRG/MNK/BLM, and they shouldn't be able to outheal a WHM.

So, what does that leave? The utility. And, like I've said previously, if their utility in the forms of buffs/debuffs with damage/healing don't make it worth bringing a RDM over another DRG/MNK/BLM/WHM, then they'll never be a viable class. Don't get me wrong, I want to see a RDM in this game. The aesthetic of the class is just way too awesome. The difficulty comes in how they are implemented. Honestly? My idea of a RDM would be take the Fencer class from Tactics Advance, and the RDM abilities would be Saboteur/Synergist abilities from FFXIII with, of course, Double Cast as it's something of a staple of the job now.

[Dawiichan]

Actually, I've never played FFXI. My point is, if it's a hybrid, it can't be a "carry", as you've so put it, otherwise why bring pure DD classes that bring none of the so-called Utility you speak of? RDM would be something similar to Paladin in WoW. The slightest changes/nerfs/buffs to the class itself can manifest in horrendous overpowered/underpowered performance in a hybrid class. In order for RDM to be viable, yes they will have their rapiers and their magic, but they're not going to, and honestly shouldn't be able to, out DD a DRG/MNK/BLM, and they shouldn't be able to outheal a WHM.

So, what does that leave? The utility. And, like I've said previously, if their utility in the forms of buffs/debuffs with damage/healing don't make it worth bringing a RDM over another DRG/MNK/BLM/WHM, then they'll never be a viable class. Don't get me wrong, I want to see a RDM in this game. The aesthetic of the class is just way too awesome. The difficulty comes in how they are implemented. Honestly? My idea of a RDM would be take the Fencer class from Tactics Advance, and the RDM abilities would be Saboteur/Synergist abilities from FFXIII with, of course, Double Cast as it's something of a staple of the job now.

Ok, I guess I'm going to have to go more into depth for you to understand. You don't have to carry someone to become useful. You're thinking about it too one sided. Have you don't the BLM faction leve? While it's purely magical based, making it carry one aspect, it still kind of depicts what the capabilities of the job can do. Three flans at the start, one can only be hurt by fire, one by ice and one by lightning. In this one fight, you need 3 different aspects to complete the first section. Then after those 3, you fight the princess which changes into those 3 aspects.

For the purpose of this example, lets say BLM can only deal lightning damage, a MNK can deal fire and a DRG can deal ice damage. However Red Mage can deal both lightning, fire, and ice, yet not at the full power which BLM, MNK and DRG can. So when the fight of the 3 flans come in, the DRG, BLM, and MNK class obviously excel at it than the Red Mage. But when the princess appears, who will be the most useful? BLM can't do anything until the princess goes into her lightning-weak form. MNK can't do anything until she's in her fire-weak form. However RDM can deal damage at all times.

See what I mean? The game doesn't have to have a linear system as it does now. Take Garuda for Relic as another example. When the sisters appear, you need both physical and magical damage. However they increase the amount of damage to three-fold. In Garuda for relic, you can't have anybody die, this sudden increase in damage can become detrimental. This brings the importance of a flexible class that can not only deal both forms of damage, yet also support/heal. Yes, flexibility is a form of utility.

EDIT: BTW, I'm using carry as it's literal sense. Not like it is used in Moba games.

[ShivenCasull]

Actually, I've never played FFXI. My point is, if it's a hybrid, it can't be a "carry", as you've so put it, otherwise why bring pure DD classes that bring none of the so-called Utility you speak of? RDM would be something similar to Paladin in WoW.

Hybrids should be able to fill a role in a party (as a dedicated healer or dedicated DD) if they're going to have a purpose. It's a matter of resource management on the developers part.

This isn't WoW, class stacking and the problems that arose from "hybrids vs pure" won't be drastic since everyone can switch jobs.

[Ashenspire]

Ok, I guess I'm going to have to go more into depth for you to understand. You don't have to carry someone to become useful. You're thinking about it too one sided. Have you don't the BLM faction leve? While it's purely magical based, making it carry one aspect, it still kind of depicts what the capabilities of the job can do. Three flans at the start, one can only be hurt by fire, one by ice and one by lightning. In this one fight, you need 3 different aspects to complete the first section. Then after those 3, you fight the princess which changes into those 3 aspects.

For the purpose of this example, lets say BLM can only deal lightning damage, a MNK can deal fire and a DRG can deal ice damage. However Red Mage can deal both lightning, fire, and ice, yet not at the full power which BLM, MNK and DRG can. So when the fight of the 3 flans come in, the DRG, BLM, and MNK class obviously excel at it than the Red Mage. But when the princess appears, who will be the most useful? BLM can't do anything until the princess goes into her lightning-weak form. MNK can't do anything until she's in her fire-weak form. However RDM can deal damage at all times.

See what I mean? The game doesn't have to have a linear system as it does now. Take Garuda for Relic as another example. When the sisters appear, you need both physical and magical damage. However they increase the amount of damage to three-fold. In Garuda for relic, you can't have anybody die, this sudden increase in damage can become detrimental. This brings the importance of a flexible class that can not only deal both forms of damage, yet also support/heal. Yes, flexibility is a form of utility.

So who do you replace in your faction leve scenario? The BLM? The DRG? MNK? So the princess is now a bit easier because a hybrid, who isn't a pure damage dealer, can do their mediocre damage during all phases. But the first phase is tougher, as everyone has to wait for the hybrid who, again, not a pure damage dealer, has to deal with their flan while 2 people just sit there and do nothing. It's a hypothetical situation, but you bring up a good point, which is what I've been trying to make. Balance. Where do you draw that line?

And no. A hybrid should NEVER EVER EVER be able to fill a role in a party as a dedicated healer/dd as if they CAN do that, then there is never a reason to bring a dedicated healer/dd that can't also bring the utility that a hybrid can. Even if they are a dedicated healer, they have damage abilities. Even if they are a DD, they can bring healing. See the issue there?

Everyone want's RDMs to come in here dealing awesome damage with their sword, and awesome damage with their magic, all while keeping their party topped off in health, and it's just not a thing that should ever happen. A RDM, imo, should make everyone around them stronger, similar to a BRD, but in different ways. Haste, Deprotect, Imperil, these are the things I'd like to see from the RDM. These things should increase the damage/healing of the entire party to an extent that it's more beneficial for the party to bring a RDM instead of another DD that can do more damage than the RDM is doing itself + the increases they're giving to the party. Do you understand, now, what I'm saying?

[ShivenCasull]

Where do you draw that line?

And no. A hybrid should NEVER EVER EVER be able to fill a role in a party as a dedicated healer/dd as if they CAN do that, then there is never a reason to bring a dedicated healer/dd that can't also bring the utility that a hybrid can. Even if they are a dedicated healer, they have damage abilities. Even if they are a DD, they can bring healing. See the issue there?

You should not jump to extreme conclusions. What I meant is: a RDM can heal as well as a WHM (If it's all he spends MP on) a RDM should be able to DD as well as any other DD. They would all bring their individual utility. WHM's that don't have to cure all the time already spend their MP dealing damage. All you're saying RDM should be is a buff-bot, which is why the RDM is mistreated so widely by the XI community.

Everyone want's RDMs to come in here dealing awesome damage with their sword, and awesome damage with their magic, all while keeping their party topped off in health, and it's just not a thing that should ever happen.

It would be a grevious error on SE's part if they allowed RDM to do this. In a perfect world a RDM would not have enough MP to deal high magic damage and keep dedicated heals on a tank.

[Altanas]

When I think about being a Hybrid, I also start thinking about Class (Solo Play) v Job (Party Play)

If I was a Fencer, I'm just concerned about my damage output really, so enspells galore would be fine.

If I was a Red Mage and in a party, I'd probably want to bring some buffs and debuffs to the table.

I can imagine RDM having access to Bravery and Faith to buff themselves and party members to compensate for people who say "well lets bring another pure DD instead"

I can imagine RDM having access to spells changing state of the battlefield such as Oil.

I would imagine Faith buff the blm -> Oil the mob -> Fire from BLM to make a massive explosion would more than compensate for not just having another blm. And that type of strategy would probably contribute towards this "Fine Play" thing Yoshi-P has been going on about.

I remember a long time ago we had a spell on THM? that rendered a mobs elemental alignment neutral. That would be a handy debuff for an RDM to bring to the table for certain fights so other jobs can contribute more effectively.

The whole idea of pimping out the RDM melee output would be more suited to pimping the base class (Fencer?) so they are like Steiner from FF9. That way we would actually have a defined class and defined job, one is melee orientated and one is mage orientated. When we equip the job crystal we sacrifice the melee contribution in favour of buffs/debuffs as there may be some fights or bosses where the bulk of the party will be asked to step back away from heavy AoEs

[Dawiichan]

So who do you replace in your faction leve scenario? The BLM? The DRG? MNK? So the princess is now a bit easier because a hybrid, who isn't a pure damage dealer, can do their mediocre damage during all phases. But the first phase is tougher, as everyone has to wait for the hybrid who, again, not a pure damage dealer, has to deal with their flan while 2 people just sit there and do nothing. It's a hypothetical situation, but you bring up a good point, which is what I've been trying to make. Balance. Where do you draw that line?

And no. A hybrid should NEVER EVER EVER be able to fill a role in a party as a dedicated healer/dd as if they CAN do that, then there is never a reason to bring a dedicated healer/dd that can't also bring the utility that a hybrid can. Even if they are a dedicated healer, they have damage abilities. Even if they are a DD, they can bring healing. See the issue there?

Everyone want's RDMs to come in here dealing awesome damage with their sword, and awesome damage with their magic, all while keeping their party topped off in health, and it's just not a thing that should ever happen. A RDM, imo, should make everyone around them stronger, similar to a BRD, but in different ways. Haste, Deprotect, Imperil, these are the things I'd like to see from the RDM. These things should increase the damage/healing of the entire party to an extent that it's more beneficial for the party to bring a RDM instead of another DD that can do more damage than the RDM is doing itself + the increases they're giving to the party. Do you understand, now, what I'm saying?

Who said that they want RDM to do awesome Magic damage, awesome Sword damage and be an amazing healer? Who said that they are taking a Healer/DDs spot? In a party, there aren't spots specified just for this. It's not like a Red Mage will only take on the healer role, it won't take on only the DD roll. You should NEVER EVER EVER play a hybrid as a single roll when doing content, doing so is only handicapping yourself. It makes the point of being a hybrid completely moot if you can't use your FULL potential.

You bring up another point, which is where I think I may have written up the example incorrectly. I used the first part of it on how you're thinking of the topic. You're thinking about it as too linear. The BLM, DRG, and MNK focus on one aspect is the way of thought that makes a hybrid 100% useless. Content which focuses on just a single thing locks other jobs out, which completely defeats the purpose. The princess is the focus towards the importance a hybrid can bring to a fight. It's supposed to show how it doesn't just have to focus on one aspect, but can move on to others while the other rolls can't.

Why do you think that a monk can be more useful in Garuda that a BLM can? The fact that it isn't as limited in the fight automatically increases it's utility in the fight. A Blm can only deal damage to Garuda and Chirada. However a Monk can deal damage to Garuda, Chirada, Suprana and can deal with the plumes that appear on the south winds form. However one can't deny that a BLM can burn down Chirada much faster than a MNK can. Though that still doesn't change the fact that one can not only burn down Chirada but also help on Suprana and help take down plumes gives it more use than a BLM throughout the entire scenario instead of just a single part of the fight.