Red Mage idea

[Duelle]

Rogues, Warlocks, Mages and Hunters could ONLY fill those roles, whereas Paladins, Druids, Warriors, Death Knights and Shamans could fill 2-3 depending on class.

And the guys that wanted to play as those other roles were effectively screwed out of them. I was there, so I remember pre-WotLK class dynamics. If you were a Paladin you were always healing. If you were a warrior you were always tanking.

Anyone worth talking to never said they wanted to absolutely stomp hybrid classes on the DPS meters, but that in equal gear/skill levels, the pure DPS would come out on top. For awhile, that wasn't the case.

Believe it or not, I am fine with minor discrepancies. I liked the idea of the mythical 5% from WotLK, because it prevented raid leaders and the community as a whole from making stupid assumptions like "the pure should always get the DPS spot because that hybrid deals less DPS". That alone was enough to "fool" the masses, even if the number crunchers could find the difference in performance.

Either way, we're restricted by the armoury system, so I expect the job to be built around the weapon, with the skills and spells complimenting the fact RDM is a melee mage. That, however, doesn't mean we shouldn't be wary of ideas that give birth to idiocy from the community.

[Altanas]

When I think about being a Hybrid, I also start thinking about Class (Solo Play) v Job (Party Play)

If I was a Fencer, I'm just concerned about my damage output really, so enspells galore would be fine.

If I was a Red Mage and in a party, I'd probably want to bring some buffs and debuffs to the table.

I can imagine RDM having access to Bravery and Faith to buff themselves and party members to compensate for people who say "well lets bring another pure DD instead"

I can imagine RDM having access to spells changing state of the battlefield such as Oil.

I would imagine Faith buff the blm -> Oil the mob -> Fire from BLM to make a massive explosion would more than compensate for not just having another blm. And that type of strategy would probably contribute towards this "Fine Play" thing Yoshi-P has been going on about.

I remember a long time ago we had a spell on THM? that rendered a mobs elemental alignment neutral. That would be a handy debuff for an RDM to bring to the table for certain fights so other jobs can contribute more effectively.

The whole idea of pimping out the RDM melee output would be more suited to pimping the base class (Fencer?) so they are like Steiner from FF9. That way we would actually have a defined class and defined job, one is melee orientated and one is mage orientated. When we equip the job crystal we sacrifice the melee contribution in favour of buffs/debuffs as there may be some fights or bosses where the bulk of the party will be asked to step back away from heavy AoEs

[Virin]

First, I am amazed the discussion is still going. Cool. Lots of good debate and ideas flowing. Too bad no one with any say will read it.

What I hope for in 2.0 is the ability to need these utility classes. Need isn't quite the right term but hear me out. What I'd like to see is that in the end game content you could go in with your "true" classes and do fine but it would be safer or maybe less stressful if you had a util class with you who could jump on any role needed at that moment.

This idea leads to a small % of people who say "Hybrids are bad and you're bad for using one." <--- I should make a meme for that



and done

ok back to the point. I am a huge fan of the util, hybrid class. Now, of course I usual roll tank jobs. That's what I do but I also have a hybrid because those tend to be more fun. The pure jobs to me = spam a couple skills over and over again until mobs die and move to next. When I play hybrid classes I am always watching for something else to happen. Take Pally in WoW. The original pally the pre-OP heal-bot no dps pally. Somehow I was able to take that into raids and if an OT went down or someone leeroy'd an area I could pick up the adds, if healers were struggling I could help, and the whole time I was attacking.
FFXI- same thing but with RDM. I was in the front row smacking things in the face the whole time I was haste botting and healing. It isn't hard if you can multitask and I think that is where the "bad player" comes from. I think so many people hate on hybrid players because a lot of them can't multitask that job and instead can only play it like they would play a pure class... spam a couple skills.

I for one don't want to see in 2.0 a 2h tank, whm and the rest of the party be blm for everything endgame. I will never, EVER understand how a 2h class is a tank that is poor design. If they wanted war to be tank they should have allowed them 1h axe and shields for tanking and 2h axe for DD. I don't want it to be a wow clone nor do i want it to be easy but I would like to see more of a utility desire and definately more variety in the game. It would be nice to be able to do the content with a pld as a tank or a war as a tank, with a blm dd and/or melee dd. i don't even like the brd class nor plan on playing it but I would like to see them shine as more than a buffer and never see "loldmg" used in forums again.

[SwordCoheir]

Thing about FFXI's RDM is it had tons of things working against it, here's a few that are just the tip of the iceberg.

-Magic and Melee did not work cohesively like with BLU
-Staves became required due to their benefits pretty much overshadowing anything RDM got from Swords and Daggers, and since swapping weapons meant lost TP it threw weapon swapping out of the equation.
-Stagnation, oh Lord did they let RDM grow stagnant. No unique Enfeebles outside of merits and lolGravity II, all new buffs are self-buff, no worthwhile new spells or abilities to contribute to party play, everything worth a damn is obtained through sub-job (yes literally everything).

But there are some things that FFXIV would bring to RDM that would help deter the follies of FFXI's RDM.

-Armoury System, means we'd wear a fencing or rapier type weapon full time.
-The limitations on the amount of abilities and weaponskills obtainable would give way to some creative ways to combine aspects of RDM such as WS>WS>Spell combos or Magical WS combos (Think Stiner's Magic Sword abilities from FF9).
-The power of spells and abilities scale with your level, effectively eliminating the need to have more than a few tiers of magic and the BS skill system that plauged FFXI's RDM.
-RDM technically is somewhat pre-designed with pre-1.19's Thaumatarge, and could easily benefit from using some of the removed spells like Scourge, Banish, and Sacrifice, or using some of them as a basis in the design for RDM.

But I digress, the limitations with the Armoury system are actually a good thing in the end, it restricts what you can really do with jobs and classes, so you have to think with job/spell slot limits in mind and how that would work for or against a job. Like if they just gave RDM a Single WS combo, Single Magic combo, and a few spells here and there it would probably be Underpowered not being able to dedicate itself fully to a role. Now if you gave RDM a three or four Magic WS combos or WS combos with a spell finisher or a stance ability to turn your magic WS's into long ranged nukes that might put RDM in a bit more lovable position even if they scale back the raw damage of their abilities and spells a little.

[TaalAzura]

Well, on top of giving RDM the other 3 en- spells that MNK doesn't have, you could also have RDM take skills from CNJ (sacred prism) so that it can buff the entire party. Giving it haste/refresh might be overpowered, but giving the whole party enthunder would be quit beneficial. Obviously skills like fists of fire would over-ride the sacred prism+en-spell combo.

EDIT: Also giving RDM Phalanx/Temper/Bar-spells could make the class useful while still contributing to fights by fighting melee.

[Eremor]

Well, on top of giving RDM the other 3 en- spells that MNK doesn't have, you could also have RDM take skills from CNJ (sacred prism) so that it can buff the entire party. Giving it haste/refresh might be overpowered, but giving the whole party enthunder would be quit beneficial. Obviously skills like fists of fire would over-ride the sacred prism+en-spell combo.

EDIT: Also giving RDM Phalanx/Temper/Bar-spells could make the class useful while still contributing to fights by fighting melee.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...860#post709860

I choose not to make En-spells able to be cast on other players since I think that would cut in to some of the uniqueness of the RDM in melee (and possibly make it more efficient to simply have the RDM buff the party from the back lines). But Aoe Temper and Barrier I think would be a nice contribution.

[TaalAzura]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...860#post709860

I choose not to make En-spells able to be cast on other players since I think that would cut in to some of the uniqueness of the RDM in melee (and possibly make it more efficient to simply have the RDM buff the party from the back lines). But Aoe Temper and Barrier I think would be a nice contribution.

If the only buff it had was the ones i suggested, gearing it for anything but melee would be a waste of resources (unless the en- spells were enhanced by mnd, but if it's a straight elemental effect than there would be no need for non-DPS gear).

[Duelle]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...860#post709860

Best.RDMThread. Ever.

I choose not to make En-spells able to be cast on other players since I think that would cut in to some of the uniqueness of the RDM in melee (and possibly make it more efficient to simply have the RDM buff the party from the back lines). But Aoe Temper and Barrier I think would be a nice contribution.

I may be able to get behind Temper and Barrier, but under certain conditions. 1) Instant cast. This is non-negotiable. 2a) Affects all party members regardless of how far they are from the RDM. 100 yalm radius would also work. or 2b) Aura-type effect that originates from the RDM. If I had my way, I'd make it so the RDM gets the full benefit of the buff and everyone else gets the buff at 80% potency.

[TaalAzura]

Best.RDMThread. Ever.

I may be able to get behind Temper and Barrier, but under certain conditions. 1) Instant cast. This is non-negotiable. 2a) Affects all party members regardless of how far they are from the RDM. 100 yalm radius would also work. or 2b) Aura-type effect that originates from the RDM. If I had my way, I'd make it so the RDM gets the full benefit of the buff and everyone else gets the buff at 80% potency.

This is great! and like i said, if there's a balance issue, you can make the AoE only by using Sacred Prism.

[Eremor]

Those are certainly good points, but I don't think entirely necessary. My suggestion has the spells as self-target only (like Sanguine Rite) so when Sacred Prism is used to make it aoe, it can only be centered on the RDM. The buffs are also very melee oriented so there isn't much reason to be hitting back line jobs with them.

Discussion is good, because regardless of how each of us thinks our own particular build would play, someone else may have a different opinion. And if someone finds a way to exploit something about your build that would force it into a role you don't actually want to play, you better believe that's the role RDM will end up playing.