Is it just me: Frontline

[Valence]

This debate is a storm in a kettle for the sake of arguing.

Saying that FL isn't casual is misleading specifically because that's the only existing mode for FL with no ranked mode to triage players through skill like ranked CC does (or even pve savage+), therefore expecting everybody to tryhard at the level of premades (as I've seen expressed sometimes on those forums, aka "just do your own premade bruh"), or just playing as well as skilled veterans holds no water for that same specific reason that asking your random Joe the Rouletter in your msq roulette play on a level that would be expected from a savage raider is ludicrous, or expecting casual players from the casual mode of CC suddenly be held to the same standards as crystal/omega/ultima players from the ranked mode.

Similarly, saying that nobody should try to play their best or actually optimize with organized teams in modes like FL is equally nonsensical, for the same reason that telling someone in your average expert roulette that they shouldn't optimize their job because "why bother" makes zero sense, or that they should certainly not attempt no healer speedruns of those either.

If you're speaking of modes where most audiences of players intersect, this is bound to generate friction yes, but expecting the other audiences to cater to one's vision for the mode is beyond bonkers.

[Scintilla]

Saying that FL isn't casual is misleading specifically because that's the only existing mode for FL with no ranked mode to triage players through skill like ranked CC does (or even pve savage+), therefore expecting everybody to tryhard at the level of premades (as I've seen expressed sometimes on those forums, aka "just do your own premade bruh"), or just playing as well as skilled veterans holds no water for that same specific reason that asking your random Joe the Rouletter in your msq roulette play on a level that would be expected from a savage raider is ludicrous, or expecting casual players from the casual mode of CC suddenly be held to the same standards as crystal/omega/ultima players from the ranked mode.

As I said, there is no expectation whatsoever for rouletters to play to the same level of veterans or premades. The important part is that they try and don't just outright dismiss FL as 'it doesn't matter' purely because they themselves have little/no interest in it. All this does is promote the notion that no effort or care is required purely because 'its only FL', hence leading to the many issues faced within FL at the moment. Too many will sit aside and just AFK. If someone attempts to lead in the hope of keeping the team together and maintaining coordination, too often are they faced with people actively and maliciously trying to make that harder (removing markers etc.) or responding with rude, sometimes bordering on abusive, comments. Just try!

As I've said before and I'm sure many FL regulars will agree, if I was paid for every time I heard "Who cares? I'm only here for the exp", I'd never have to work again.


Unfortunately, the structure of FL doesn't lend itself well to a split, ranked system like CC. Requiring so many players, it's almost impossible to divide teams up by rank/experience - lower ranked games would continue with no issues, while higher ranked games would never pop. Not unless the boundaries for those 'ranks' were so wide that there wouldn't be much point to adding them in the first place. Sadly, that's one negative to the design of FL.

And I'm not remotely in favour of the "just do your own premade" attitude that some veteran players take. Casual players are less likely to want to practice if they're being destroyed over and over again or forced into the same meta classes repeatedly just to stand a chance. Some will take it as a challenge and use it to drive their motivation to practice and improve for the purpose of being able to counter a premade. Though, these are few and the majority appear to take the route of 'let them win, end it fast' all while complaining in chat about how premades should be banned.

Both sides share some fault.

[Elephantality]

And I'm not remotely in favour of the "just do your own premade" attitude that some veteran players take. Casual players are less likely to want to practice if they're being destroyed over and over again or forced into the same meta classes repeatedly just to stand a chance. Some will take it as a challenge and use it to drive their motivation to practice and improve for the purpose of being able to counter a premade. Though, these are few and the majority appear to take the route of 'let them win, end it fast' all while complaining in chat about how premades should be banned.

I don't think removing premades will change anything regarding meta classes being chosen. However, I can understand that it won't be fun being constantly put against premades for casuals. Yet at the same time, premade isn't an autowin button, nor does it = only meta classes. Also sometimes I like to play with friends simply to just have fun, especially on Onsal. On Seal Rock I try to just win because we need 100 wins for the coat. Removing premades will not stop me from trying to work together with the players I get matched with in-game either.

[A-Omega]

I’m seeing the confusion in this chat. Everyone is struggling to define “serious”. I’d define serious as extreme effort for success, not simply trying to win. Ie…if you’ve ever done high end raids/Exs, you’ll know there are tons of strategies, exacts in PF descriptions, and harsh punishment for anyone who fails repeatedly. That’s taking the content “serious”. That kinda intensity doesn’t translate to frontline. Making call-outs, setting way markers, or naming targets aren’t a bad thing. You’re trying to direct the masses to secure a W. Taking to “serious” is when you start verbally bashing people in the chat for not following directions. Same goes for casual CC. Nothing more annoying then catching a beating while someone is spamming “hello”, “thanks”, or “nice job”.

Disclaimer. It’s annoying in ranked but you gotta expect it. The general thought is, everyone past gold is there because they know what they’re doing. Repeated failure is more harshly approached because that IS meant to be taken “serious”.

At no point has anyone said you shouldn’t try to win or QB your team. The statement has been…don’t make a casual mode more serious than it’s meant to be.

Another disclaimer. If you have a premade, you control how serious or not serious you play. The only limitation to that is, don’t expect the other alliances to play the same way your premade does. Thats the unfair part of frontline being the only version of its kind.

[Aravell]

I’m seeing the confusion in this chat. Everyone is struggling to define “serious”. I’d define serious as extreme effort for success, not simply trying to win. Ie…if you’ve ever done high end raids/Exs, you’ll know there are tons of strategies, exacts in PF descriptions, and harsh punishment for anyone who fails repeatedly. That’s taking the content “serious”. That kinda intensity doesn’t translate to frontline. Making call-outs, setting way markers, or naming targets aren’t a bad thing. You’re trying to direct the masses to secure a W. Taking to “serious” is when you start verbally bashing people in the chat for not following directions. Same goes for casual CC. Nothing more annoying then catching a beating while someone is spamming “hello”, “thanks”, or “nice job”.

I think most people would define "serious" as being sufficiently prepared before going in. In terms of Frontlines, it would be understanding the map objectives, the ebb and flow of combat, knowing your job and trying your best to win, verbally bashing people isn't "being serious", that's "being unpleasant".

While I agree that you can't expect everyone to be serious enough to sufficiently prepare for a mode where you can just queue up for in a roulette, let's not normalise verbal attacks on others as "just being serious".

[A-Omega]

I think most people would define "serious" as being sufficiently prepared before going in. In terms of Frontlines, it would be understanding the map objectives, the ebb and flow of combat, knowing your job and trying your best to win, verbally bashing people isn't "being serious", that's "being unpleasant".

While I agree that you can't expect everyone to be serious enough to sufficiently prepare for a mode where you can just queue up for in a roulette, let's not normalise verbal attacks on others as "just being serious".

While I agree with your definition of serious, it doesn’t translate to frontline. In fact, it helps to prove it isn’t serious simply because most people have no idea what’s going on. The average person shows up for rewards and the fun factor. I don’t see these mythical players who aren’t doing anything everyone keeps mentioning. Everyone plays, they just don’t play well.

I don’t normalize verbal attacks. In the extreme situation where you show up completely unprepared for “serious” content, you most definitely should be prepared for negative reactions. That’s also as rare as the mythical “not playing” frontliner. No one shows up knowing every detail of fights, that’s why practice parties exist. With that being said…if you show up to a clear party and have no idea how to do any mechanics, you purposefully inconvenience others and deserve what you get. That ties into your definition of “serious”. In that space, we play for keeps and expect everyone showing up to have the same energy. That’s also why Ex/Savage/Ultimate have completely separate queue from casual content.

[MayuAmakura]

I’m seeing the confusion in this chat. Everyone is struggling to define “serious”. I’d define serious as extreme effort for success, not simply trying to win. Ie…if you’ve ever done high end raids/Exs, you’ll know there are tons of strategies, exacts in PF descriptions, and harsh punishment for anyone who fails repeatedly. That’s taking the content “serious”. That kinda intensity doesn’t translate to frontline. Making call-outs, setting way markers, or naming targets aren’t a bad thing. You’re trying to direct the masses to secure a W. Taking to “serious” is when you start verbally bashing people in the chat for not following directions. Same goes for casual CC. Nothing more annoying then catching a beating while someone is spamming “hello”, “thanks”, or “nice job”.

Disclaimer. It’s annoying in ranked but you gotta expect it. The general thought is, everyone past gold is there because they know what they’re doing. Repeated failure is more harshly approached because that IS meant to be taken “serious”.

Alright here's the thing. Not all people who passed gold have done it because they are smart or good, most of them got it past because of luck and rng. Do you know get it how awful ranked is and how many people don't deserve their ranks? So why this happens?

- There is no demotion in gold / plat, which means hardstuck plat 4 players tend to destroy everyone's games including the wintraders that do it on purpose because they know that there's no demotion.
- A lot of players have more than 600 games played and have overcome gold but doesn't mean they were good, this is just luck.
- So many people can get winning streaks because this game doesn't have enough people in CC. Some people will have 9 games won in a row because enemy team trolls everytime or they constantly get queued up with best players while enemy team unfortunately has the worst comps possible. This is how some of them came to diamond without any issues, heck even crystal.

When I played Crystaline Conflict on my first try in season 9, I came to diamond 1 just because one day I had super easy games where enemy team trolled on purpose. It net me tons of wins even though I didn't deserve that rank and was a bad player. Do you now realize what's happening with this game mode?

Let's not go deeper into the facts that when you have 10-20 same people in queue every day, your chances of rising up are very slim and system tends to put same teams over and over so good luck if that one day you constantly have an anchor in your team and enemy team does not. This leads to queue sniping, class sniping and then general toxicity written on internet about particular person. This whole game mod needs a big rework and more people if it is ever to get serious.