Is it just me: Frontline

[A-Omega]

Meanwhile, just a couple of posts above, posted by you yourself:



TLDR: "Unless you prove to me good ranking, your opinion is worthless and isn't worth my consideration."

The hypocrisy is almost laughable!

I suggest some considerable self-reflection.

Let me put it in ff14 terms….

You dove into the front lines (forums) and hit the tank (OP).
You were pressing a bunch of buttons (posts) but a dps (me) hit you with a stun.
No matter how many more buttons you press (more pointless posts) nothing works.
You gotta purify man (stats) before you can do anything else.

I’ll even offer meeting up in game and synchronizing our CC queue so you can prove your CC/PvP mastery. We’re talking about PvP in this post that makes this the Colosseum. You’re challenging gladiators. Time to stop cutting promos and show what your words can’t.

[Scintilla]

Apologies for my delay in replying - I've only just had chance.

You’re making the mistake of treating all PvP modes as if they share the same weight.

It's not a mistake. This false belief that one duty holds a higher standing to another only emphasizes a lack of experience.

Lack of awareness can lead people to look at something from a superficial aspect, just as a non-gamer may argue that gaming requires no thought because it's 'just pressing buttons'. Anything can be reduced to such levels by unawareness, when there's usually more complexities to it.

If SE wanted FL to function like CC, it wouldn’t have roulette incentives, respawns, and RNG objectives

FL has incentives because of how large-scale it is. For a CC game, only 10 players are needed, which pales in comparison to the 72 players needed for an FL game to happen. The roulette simply helps to maintain a good supply of players.

Secondly, the claim of FL being casual because it contains RNG elements is nonsense. CC maps also contains such elements, for example, the bombs in Volcanic Heart.

It exists as an accessible, large-scale PvP mode.

Yes. Not to everyone's taste, admittedly. The 1v1v1 setup, in particular, being quite controversial.

Personally, I much prefer FL and quite like the 3-team approach. Unlike CC where I only need to worry about one set of opponents, in FL I have to be aware of the positioning and actions of two full alliances. It can be unpredictable, requiring you to adjust your tactics to a changing situation. Although the 1v1v1 setup can lead to difficulties when one of the teams decides they'd rather spend the whole game 2v1ing you rather than focusing the winning team, that setup can prove useful in other ways, like the challenging of premades.

FL doesn’t require the same structure or seriousness as CC

The point about seriousness is also nonsense and part of the issue faced within FLs at the moment. I'm sure you've seen the many threads complaining of premade teams? They certainly pose a challenge, but part of why they're such a headache to defeat is the half-hearted approach which many take.

Of course, perfect play isn't expected, but it is expected of everyone to try their upmost to win. Sadly, too many players prefer to AFK/emote in base and spam basic attacks while watching YouTube because "I only want exp"

Don't put in zero effort because "it's not that deep" and then complain when you lose to a team who is actively trying.

[Scintilla]

Stats??? Still no huh. Have you been exposed as fraudulent.

Obviously my CC one is quite old, given that I only tend to play it when I want commendation crystals for glam. I know better players, but still not bad.

The 'Overall Performance' being the FL games for the alt I play most within PvP, Cherish. It's not counting the games I have played over time on my other characters, including my forum one - Taeryn.

A debate is person against person. In a debate, you provide proof backing your stance. I’ve requested your proof.

I've provided my proof as you insisted. Now it's your turn - both CC and FL.

[Vatom]

Lack of awareness can lead people to look at something from a superficial aspect, just as a non-gamer may argue that gaming requires no thought because it's 'just pressing buttons'.

That’s a strawman. I never said CC “holds higher standing” than FL — I said it serves a different purpose. Design intent matters. FL was built with RNG objectives, and extra abilities specifically to make it accessible, chaotic, and casual-friendly. That’s not “ignorance,” that’s literally how the mode was designed.

Complexity doesn’t always equal competitiveness. A board game can be mechanically busy without being an esport. FL is fun because it isn’t CC — pretending otherwise just forces a seriousness onto content that wasn’t made for it.

Secondly, the claim of FL being casual because it contains RNG elements is nonsense. CC maps also contains such elements, for example, the bombs in Volcanic Heart.

Roulette is part of what makes FL casual. Rival wings, CC, Extreme, Savage and Ultimate don’t need roulettes because they’re not designed for casual accessibility. FL, on the other hand, was tied to EXP and roulettes precisely so players who wouldn’t normally touch PvP could still participate. That’s a developer choice, not an accident.

And RNG isn’t the issue by itself — it’s the role RNG plays. In CC, bombs are side mechanics. In FL, objectives like ice or nodes are the main way to score. That’s a fundamental difference. RNG isn’t just “spice” in FL, it’s part of why the mode isn’t structured like a high-stakes competitive match.

Yes. Not to everyone's taste, admittedly. The 1v1v1 setup, in particular, being quite controversial.

Of course, perfect play isn't expected, but it is expected of everyone to try their upmost to win. Sadly, too many players prefer to AFK/emote in base and spam basic attacks while watching YouTube because "I only want exp"

Don't put in zero effort because "it's not that deep" and then complain when you lose to a team who is actively trying.

There’s a big difference between literally AFKing and casually playing objectives. One is griefing, the other is valid play. Let not equate “not playing my way” with “not trying.”
If your miss understanding my stance on this please read the response I have as I do everyone else cause repeating myself is getting bothersome.

As I said, there is no expectation whatsoever for rouletters to play to the same level of veterans or premades.

Why couldn't we have this conversation instead?

[MayuAmakura]

As for frontlines, major issue is the fact that you can afk or even better, use 3rd party tools to not even do anything and get massive xp and boost your leveling. You get free things just by going in and doing nothing. On top of that we have a bad pvp showcase system THAT DOESN'T TELL anything to new players who decide to join pvp.

You get absolutely no tutorial on where to find your spells, what is a pvp tab, nothing. The tutorial that they have built-in via slides isn't something people will read, they don't care and most close it immediately. This is why you have people who don't know recuperate, potions or limit breaks exist after 2000 games. They are just clueless.

This leads to very bad quality games where in 10 minute match you'll have players that did 16k dps and mostly died around not knowing what to do. Some do it on purpose some genuinely are new and some just never bothered to learn because they are lazy and need fast xp.

It doesn't matter if you're good in pvp or not, fl are just RNG and on top of that you have premades that ruin the fun for everyone. Nobody likes to play against a team that has premades cause this is auto lose for everyone. The 3rd team will most likely do shenanigans where they will collide with you and let prem team win easily. This mostly always happens. Also rng of spawning points where sometimes square will spawn points to already winning team so they can win even harder.

Those guys are easily recognizable in every match. Either by names or the fact that they always move together and play tanks. The best classes right now where they do top dps. You can play something like machinist and do biggest dps and most kills but it won't matter if you are the only one in your team doing something and yes this happens frequently where you are the only one with over 1 million dps.

[Valence]

This debate is a storm in a kettle for the sake of arguing.

Saying that FL isn't casual is misleading specifically because that's the only existing mode for FL with no ranked mode to triage players through skill like ranked CC does (or even pve savage+), therefore expecting everybody to tryhard at the level of premades (as I've seen expressed sometimes on those forums, aka "just do your own premade bruh"), or just playing as well as skilled veterans holds no water for that same specific reason that asking your random Joe the Rouletter in your msq roulette play on a level that would be expected from a savage raider is ludicrous, or expecting casual players from the casual mode of CC suddenly be held to the same standards as crystal/omega/ultima players from the ranked mode.

Similarly, saying that nobody should try to play their best or actually optimize with organized teams in modes like FL is equally nonsensical, for the same reason that telling someone in your average expert roulette that they shouldn't optimize their job because "why bother" makes zero sense, or that they should certainly not attempt no healer speedruns of those either.

If you're speaking of modes where most audiences of players intersect, this is bound to generate friction yes, but expecting the other audiences to cater to one's vision for the mode is beyond bonkers.

[Scintilla]

Saying that FL isn't casual is misleading specifically because that's the only existing mode for FL with no ranked mode to triage players through skill like ranked CC does (or even pve savage+), therefore expecting everybody to tryhard at the level of premades (as I've seen expressed sometimes on those forums, aka "just do your own premade bruh"), or just playing as well as skilled veterans holds no water for that same specific reason that asking your random Joe the Rouletter in your msq roulette play on a level that would be expected from a savage raider is ludicrous, or expecting casual players from the casual mode of CC suddenly be held to the same standards as crystal/omega/ultima players from the ranked mode.

As I said, there is no expectation whatsoever for rouletters to play to the same level of veterans or premades. The important part is that they try and don't just outright dismiss FL as 'it doesn't matter' purely because they themselves have little/no interest in it. All this does is promote the notion that no effort or care is required purely because 'its only FL', hence leading to the many issues faced within FL at the moment. Too many will sit aside and just AFK. If someone attempts to lead in the hope of keeping the team together and maintaining coordination, too often are they faced with people actively and maliciously trying to make that harder (removing markers etc.) or responding with rude, sometimes bordering on abusive, comments. Just try!

As I've said before and I'm sure many FL regulars will agree, if I was paid for every time I heard "Who cares? I'm only here for the exp", I'd never have to work again.


Unfortunately, the structure of FL doesn't lend itself well to a split, ranked system like CC. Requiring so many players, it's almost impossible to divide teams up by rank/experience - lower ranked games would continue with no issues, while higher ranked games would never pop. Not unless the boundaries for those 'ranks' were so wide that there wouldn't be much point to adding them in the first place. Sadly, that's one negative to the design of FL.

And I'm not remotely in favour of the "just do your own premade" attitude that some veteran players take. Casual players are less likely to want to practice if they're being destroyed over and over again or forced into the same meta classes repeatedly just to stand a chance. Some will take it as a challenge and use it to drive their motivation to practice and improve for the purpose of being able to counter a premade. Though, these are few and the majority appear to take the route of 'let them win, end it fast' all while complaining in chat about how premades should be banned.

Both sides share some fault.

[Elephantality]

And I'm not remotely in favour of the "just do your own premade" attitude that some veteran players take. Casual players are less likely to want to practice if they're being destroyed over and over again or forced into the same meta classes repeatedly just to stand a chance. Some will take it as a challenge and use it to drive their motivation to practice and improve for the purpose of being able to counter a premade. Though, these are few and the majority appear to take the route of 'let them win, end it fast' all while complaining in chat about how premades should be banned.

I don't think removing premades will change anything regarding meta classes being chosen. However, I can understand that it won't be fun being constantly put against premades for casuals. Yet at the same time, premade isn't an autowin button, nor does it = only meta classes. Also sometimes I like to play with friends simply to just have fun, especially on Onsal. On Seal Rock I try to just win because we need 100 wins for the coat. Removing premades will not stop me from trying to work together with the players I get matched with in-game either.

[A-Omega]

I’m seeing the confusion in this chat. Everyone is struggling to define “serious”. I’d define serious as extreme effort for success, not simply trying to win. Ie…if you’ve ever done high end raids/Exs, you’ll know there are tons of strategies, exacts in PF descriptions, and harsh punishment for anyone who fails repeatedly. That’s taking the content “serious”. That kinda intensity doesn’t translate to frontline. Making call-outs, setting way markers, or naming targets aren’t a bad thing. You’re trying to direct the masses to secure a W. Taking to “serious” is when you start verbally bashing people in the chat for not following directions. Same goes for casual CC. Nothing more annoying then catching a beating while someone is spamming “hello”, “thanks”, or “nice job”.

Disclaimer. It’s annoying in ranked but you gotta expect it. The general thought is, everyone past gold is there because they know what they’re doing. Repeated failure is more harshly approached because that IS meant to be taken “serious”.

At no point has anyone said you shouldn’t try to win or QB your team. The statement has been…don’t make a casual mode more serious than it’s meant to be.

Another disclaimer. If you have a premade, you control how serious or not serious you play. The only limitation to that is, don’t expect the other alliances to play the same way your premade does. Thats the unfair part of frontline being the only version of its kind.

[Aravell]

I’m seeing the confusion in this chat. Everyone is struggling to define “serious”. I’d define serious as extreme effort for success, not simply trying to win. Ie…if you’ve ever done high end raids/Exs, you’ll know there are tons of strategies, exacts in PF descriptions, and harsh punishment for anyone who fails repeatedly. That’s taking the content “serious”. That kinda intensity doesn’t translate to frontline. Making call-outs, setting way markers, or naming targets aren’t a bad thing. You’re trying to direct the masses to secure a W. Taking to “serious” is when you start verbally bashing people in the chat for not following directions. Same goes for casual CC. Nothing more annoying then catching a beating while someone is spamming “hello”, “thanks”, or “nice job”.

I think most people would define "serious" as being sufficiently prepared before going in. In terms of Frontlines, it would be understanding the map objectives, the ebb and flow of combat, knowing your job and trying your best to win, verbally bashing people isn't "being serious", that's "being unpleasant".

While I agree that you can't expect everyone to be serious enough to sufficiently prepare for a mode where you can just queue up for in a roulette, let's not normalise verbal attacks on others as "just being serious".