On "Infringing upon Others" and "Negatively impacting design"

[TaleraRistain]

Companies have websites taken down all the time. This is a strange statement.


I think this is all just people being mad. But if a few websites went down, the new ones would probably be more discreet. And wasn't that really the whole point. SE cost, design, or choice isn't going to enforce anticheating. Just be discreet.

Under what grounds would they be able to have it taken down? Companies do often have a legal standing to issue a cease and desist. I gather part of the reason they were able to do in this case is that the owner's real life information was left somewhere in their github repository. If SE doesn't have real life information on the administrators of the FFLogs or Tomestone website or something like ACT, how are they going to take action against them? Are they going to go to the host service and demand the information? Well, you need to do that through legal channels.

[Moonlite]

Under what grounds would they be able to have it taken down? Companies do often have a legal standing to issue a cease and desist. I gather part of the reason they were able to do in this case is that the owner's real life information was left somewhere in their github repository. If SE doesn't have real life information on the administrators of the FFLogs or Tomestone website or something like ACT, how are they going to take action against them? Are they going to go to the host service and demand the information? Well, you need to do that through legal channels.

Are they not hosting intellectual property of SE? Just because they can scrape lodestone and other things doesn't mean they are allowed to host the info.


Not sure about Tomestone. But isn't logs a decently sized internet presence? They aren't arresting anyone they are sending an email. Sketchier translation sites get tracked down all the time. For something that has been around as long as Archon, I am going to go on a limb and say SE could find an email to send a C&D. Mentioning dubious sites. I have seen some go up in smoke with no contact from the company. They did go to the service provider and have them take down sites.


And even if it was completely without merit. I am not a lawyer. It seems like C&D letters don't need any merit to be sent out. Just to be enforced by law.

[Amarande]

Also I'd be quite curious to know how you'd proceed? Do I show up on their discords that are probably choke full of diehard fans of the websites, and expose my concerns? Or do I ask to talk with a manager? I'm sorry but this sounds a little masochistic.

Just a little masochistic. I've tried similar attempts to detoxify raiding culture, and more or less all I end up with is a collection of Discord bans, blocks, and people who go on and on about how "you just spread negativity" sooo ... sadly, something on these lines.

"people who do savage probably cheat". While there is genuine congratulations when people clear, there are also a lot of people who look down on anyone who clears harder content as cheaters and diminish their effort in getting a clear.

The trouble is twofold:

* That if you go by a strict interpretation of the TOS, a painfully large amount of the raiding playerbase DOES cheat. (And you need less than 10% of the PUG base to do this in order for it to be odds-on that you will have at least one such person in your PF.)

* This has an insidious effect on content development. I am not sure this is reversible, or if we're watching the raiding ship start to sail over the horizon as we speak as performance has become too pervasively inflated by the use of third party aids (which then require content to be tuned much more tightly to not receive mass ill feedback and/or risk a sudden implosion in player participation due to frustration if the aids are yanked especially in what seems to be the hardest tier the game has had since the horror stories of Heavensward, which actually did cause a mass towel-throwing).

but I didn't get the feeling privacy was in any way a concern of theirs (FFLogs').

Unlike the other big website-based tools that only indirectly interact with the game (e.g. the hunt trackers, the Teamcraft materials tracking aid, etc.), that fund themselves through donations, the problem here is that WC/FF Logs & Tomestone are an actual business, all the way up to including paywalled data access features.

There is going to be no way to get its operator to cooperate in a way in any way positive to the community as they have a vested interest otherwise (when you post eg an S-rank to Faloop that is merely an organized community notepad you are contributing to; when somebody uploads a run you were in to FF Logs, that is literally a product the site is to some or another degree selling).

SE does need to have it shut down, probably through leveraging the commercial nature of the site, the necessity of third party addon usage as a data source, and the ill-effects it has on the part of the playerbase that would like to just do content and not deal with boxscores or rat races (I should hope this is a majority, still).

[Batbrat]

I think this is fair. I don't know much about FFlogs, but I DO know that I've seen people in-game absolutely freak out because they didn't want a bad score to show up on it because they didn't want to be excluded from groups and or made fun of about it. I also remember that it tracks everyone by default and forces you to opt out, which is always stupid. It should always be opt in, not opt out-I don't get why people who make things like this never understand anything about consent. "well they cant do that because-" yes they can. I'm supposed to believe they're smart enough to make this whole entire big widely-known website tracking program, but then all the sudden too stupid to figure out how to not force it on everyone in the entire game? "well but if they did that, then that would make those who opt in look-" they'll look exactly like what they are in actuality. Is that a bad thing? Does it feel bad or something?
If they cant make it opt-in, just send a C&D over. Wouldn't be hard to gather evidence against it-in fact, they make it abundantly easy.

As for tomestone, no idea what that is, but if its another weirdo "you're all in this by default" then sling a C&D over that way too. I see no reason for C&D's to stop at just these 2 last things. Go full throttle, weed out as much as possible before 8.0.

[Bryson]

FFlogs and Tomestone aren't something that stays at the individual level

If transparency bothers you, you can just hide your logs.

[Yumarox]

One of the major issues is FF14 community has a problem with motivating mastery of the game. While everyone is super friendly and nice to sprouts and casual players, the same can not be said on the other end of the scale, that is a problem for long term play. The "bragging rights" and reward for completing the most difuclt challenge is something that is not given its respect in this community as much as other MMO's, the ledgend title and its weapons should be seen as something to inspire to be one day but instead people just mock it while using a mod to take those rewards for themsevles with a smug superiority of beating the system. Taking and cheapening the rewards for mastering the game is negative for motivating people to engage with it for the long term to chase those rewards and have pride in overcoming those challenges.

They already crack down on RMT for run selling and gil selling to also try and combat this since it does cheapen the bragging rights of those items if you can just buy them? While the MSQ gets people in the door, it takes less than a month to finish, so there needs to be something to chase for the rest of the time you are subbed, you have to seek challenge somehow without gatekeeping content. One thing they could do is make content time limited so that the grandfathered prestige takes over but again, mods that get around that also ruins all motivation to chase such things.

The Ff14 community is terrible at patting people on the back for their achievements but very good at ripping people down over their insecurities of performance in the game.

[Valence]

Did you bring your complains to FFlogs or tomestone?

Do you think they'd be receptive to the concerns (honestly asking)?

Also I'd be quite curious to know how you'd proceed? Do I show up on their discords that are probably choke full of diehard fans of the websites, and expose my concerns? Or do I ask to talk with a manager? I'm sorry but this sounds a little masochistic.

If transparency bothers you, you can just hide your logs.

And you'd be missing the point by miles.

One of the major issues is FF14 community has a problem with motivating mastery of the game. While everyone is super friendly and nice to sprouts and casual players, the same can not be said on the other end of the scale, that is a problem for long term play. The "bragging rights" and reward for completing the most difuclt challenge is something that is not given its respect in this community as much as other MMO's, the ledgend title and its weapons should be seen as something to inspire to be one day but instead people just mock it while using a mod to take those rewards for themsevles with a smug superiority of beating the system. Taking and cheapening the rewards for mastering the game is negative for motivating people to engage with it for the long term to chase those rewards and have pride in overcoming those challenges.

They already crack down on RMT for run selling and gil selling to also try and combat this since it does cheapen the bragging rights of those items if you can just buy them? While the MSQ gets people in the door, it takes less than a month to finish, so there needs to be something to chase for the rest of the time you are subbed, you have to seek challenge somehow without gatekeeping content. One thing they could do is make content time limited so that the grandfathered prestige takes over but again, mods that get around that also ruins all motivation to chase such things.

The Ff14 community is terrible at patting people on the back for their achievements but very good at ripping people down over their insecurities of performance in the game.

I am actually confused by this statement. Everybody I know that has cleared an ultimate was met genuinely with cheers and congratulations by everyone around. Never have I seen anyone actually being a wet blanket when reacting to such announcements. What more do you want, people kneeling down every time they draw out their ultimate weapons?

[Aravell]

I am actually confused by this statement. Everybody I know that has cleared an ultimate was met genuinely with cheers and congratulations by everyone around. Never have I seen anyone actually being a wet blanket when reacting to such announcements. What more do you want, people kneeling down every time they draw out their ultimate weapons?

I think they meant a more general community thing where a lot of people make blanket statements like "everyone who owns an ultimate weapon cheated for it" or "people who do savage probably cheat". While there is genuine congratulations when people clear, there are also a lot of people who look down on anyone who clears harder content as cheaters and diminish their effort in getting a clear.

[Kaurhz]

I mean,

This is technically not wrong, though you are first and foremost likely to be reported and sanctioned for harassment, which I think is a lot easier to moderate than something like Mare, so it is easier just to go after the tool in that instance, since you can't actually moderate what people are doing with it (since they can't see it).

That being said, I do think that FFLogs should be an opt-in tool rather than an opt-out, especially if the rationale for using it is 'self-improvement'.