Modders did it to themselves

[ratlicker54]

I think it being perfect is impossible but, If modding were part of an official channel, it would be moderated. That means clear rules, limited access, and tools designed to prevent abuse and bring in revenue. Yes, there would still be underground mods, just like in every game, but they wouldn't be front and center. They'd be kept in the shadows, not shaping the public experience.

Plenty of other games have thriving modding communities with boundaries that are respected because the developers chose to engage instead of ignore. Saying it's "utopian" to expect structure and moderation is just dismissive. It's not about giving players total liberty, it's about giving them a safe, creative space with limits that actually work.

Square Enix could choose to support modding in a way that protects the game and its players. They just haven't. That’s the real issue.

[Aniise]

While I really agree with the OP's post...

...all the other threads about the topic seem to have been deleted, so I dunno if opening another one and keeping this discussion going is such a good idea. :/

[Zackneifein]

I think it being perfect is impossible but, If modding were part of an official channel, it would be moderated. That means clear rules, limited access, and tools designed to prevent abuse and bring in revenue. Yes, there would still be underground mods, just like in every game, but they wouldn't be front and center. They'd be kept in the shadows, not shaping the public experience.

Plenty of other games have thriving modding communities with boundaries that are respected because the developers chose to engage instead of ignore. Saying it's "utopian" to expect structure and moderation is just dismissive. It's not about giving players total liberty, it's about giving them a safe, creative space with limits that actually work.

Square Enix could choose to support modding in a way that protects the game and its players. They just haven't. That’s the real issue.

We don't know why Square Enix acted now, or even if it's them. We don't know the reason - if you have to ask me, I'm convinced that it has nothing to do with "going against mod beasts" or anything like that (more like security risk, about the personnal data shared or things like that).

But one thing is sure, is that CBU3 stance is that they want total control over the art of the game. Which is... understandable, not the only stance to have, yes, but understandable ? There is game where modding is allowed that don't have (or lost) any visual identity and became an absolute mess of chaos.
I mean not everyone is like that, but there are authors or directors that hate fanfiction or re-edits of their movie and its their right. The fact is that here, for an online game, there is TOS and legal way to prevent it to happen as much as possible.

I'm not one saying that "you should unsub" because I always found it stupid, but fact is, if you are looking for a game with developers open to the modding community, FFXIV isn't for you. They were quite lenient for years and will continue to be outside of Mare, but never will be open about it. Like you said, modding is allowed in the Japanese Law if the developers allowed it, but it's not for nothing if it became a law, it's not their culture, it's also why the Japanese side of the playerbase isn't nearly as revolted as the occidental one is.

[BlisteringFrost]

We don't know why Square Enix acted now, or even if it's them. We don't know the reason - if you have to ask me, I'm convinced that it has nothing to do with "going against mod beasts" or anything like that (more like security risk, about the personnal data shared or things like that).

But one thing is sure, is that CBU3 stance is that they want total control over the art of the game. Which is... understandable, not the only stance to have, yes, but understandable ? There is game where modding is allowed that don't have (or lost) any visual identity and became an absolute mess of chaos.
I mean not everyone is like that, but there are authors or directors that hate fanfiction or re-edits of their movie and its their right. The fact is that here, for an online game, there is TOS and legal way to prevent it to happen as much as possible.

I'm not one saying that "you should unsub" because I always found it stupid, but fact is, if you are looking for a game with developers open to the modding community, FFXIV isn't for you. They were quite lenient for years and will continue to be outside of Mare, but never will be open about it. Like you said, modding is allowed in the Japanese Law if the developers allowed it, but it's not for nothing if it became a law, it's not their culture, it's also why the Japanese side of the playerbase isn't nearly as revolted as the occidental one is.

Now this isn't exactly hard proof to be fair, but....

[Zackneifein]

Now this isn't exactly hard proof to be fair, but....

It's also entirely possible. He don't say it's Square Enix so it's protecting him from potential action from them against him and he could have made enough money to be okay until his old age and chose to escape before going to far and being targeted.

But it's like speculating on who made the C&D or why if it's Square Enix : just blow hot air.

[Zelda206]

A new one will be up at some point or other and then the players can get back to the nightclubs and DJ parties.
No one in FFXIV is happy, but the way Mare was being used (and what was being injected into Mare specifically) had me hoping it would be policed or taken to task at some point.
Taken down? Bold move. Waiting until 8.0, as the good ol' CEO said to the shareholders.

[Necrofang17]

Kind of... But what the ToS actually states, and how they enforce that ToS are different, which is a problem really, because it's only otherwise ever stated in the "Disappointed dad" conversation, and of course if we are assuming this was done because of ToS and not some larger security concern, then at what point them deem "Don't talk about it" is very arbitrary, seeing as people have been openly discussing it for years.

Not that I disagree with you, but when there is a disparity like the one presented here, then the rules do actually become very meaningless, since they are undermining their own rules, and doing it in such a way that actual enforcement is kind of arbitrary, again, allowing Mare to fester openly for years before electing to take an action.

There really isn't a disparity. Everything that gets talked about in-game has potential for repercussion if reported. Mare is the only thing that has gone this rampant, so you can't compare it to anything else. You could say parsing since it's been around so long and so many people have it, but you don't see thousands of adventurer plates linking their fflogs account, do you? There is no disparity. Don't talk about it in-game, it's that simple. In-game chat logs, streams, and the never ending modded twitter screenshots are the only way to verify someone breaking ToS about third party tools. The way they enforce it is also consistent.

[Kaurhz]

There really isn't a disparity. Everything that gets talked about in-game has potential for repercussion if reported. Mare is the only thing that has gone this rampant, so you can't compare it to anything else. You could say parsing since it's been around so long and so many people have it, but you don't see thousands of adventurer plates linking their fflogs account, do you? There is no disparity. Don't talk about it in-game, it's that simple. In-game chat logs, streams, and the never ending modded twitter screenshots are the only way to verify someone breaking ToS about third party tools. The way they enforce it is also consistent.

Eh, there really is.. I mean you can say the ToS effectively operates on a 'don't tell' rule, but when your approach is so hands off, then you only really permit for it to go in one direction and that isn't good.. Especially from a developer perspective, since you are allowing people to run rampant with the nonsense that they do, as long as they 'don't speak' about it, with no real moderation beyond that point. It's the entire reason why we had things go as far out of hand as to unironically have a plugin with the express purpose of stalking.

As for comparing it to Parsing, they may not be linked in an adventurer plate, but they are certainly doing it via Lodestone, and then people aren't exactly being subtle with 'Allagan Melon' either.

and to be honest, they've arguably gone at it with legal concerns of the plugin itself, versus actually enforcing the ToS itself (e.g., it have read/write access to data files, and inheriting some of the features from the also C&D'd stalker plugin). If enforcing the ToS were their concern then you would have seen a lot of people with an action on their account in addition to action taken on the plugin itself.

So, now that I think about it (After seeing a post on another thread), even in this case their concern was probably less about ensuring people adhere to Terms of Service, and more about a wider concern they have, so really, from a ToS perspective they've actually done very little versus take the big toy away. In time someone else will make new big toy, and then it's just back to business as usual.

[CNitsah]

The real problem is that SE did not care about FFXIV for 3 years, making it not a priority. They let too many thing pass for years, and now that they finally realise XIV was in a bad place, they began to do what they should have done 3 years ago. They never have let Mare become as big as it was, but like the player complaints, they just waited until thing got too big to ignore. Sure, Mare use obnoxiousness didn't help, but the blame also lie with SE that basically ignored their cash cow for years.

[DivineP]

In my opinion what has fostered this 'To and from' between the mod and none mod communities is Yoshi and CBU itself.

I've consistently played on PlayStation - I can't mod without bricking my PlayStation. Did I care that other people used mods on PC? No.

The constant tongue in cheek by YoshiP in live letters resulting in "Don't ask don't tell" is wild.

In my eyes it was placed in thr ToS because other users apart from PC would be at a disadvantage when playing content E.G Can I RP without seeing "Mare?" No I can't therefore I am gate kept. Same for individuals who choose not to play with mods.

In my eyes, watching it over the years.. this should have been cracked down on sooner.. we are over a decade into the game and the ToS has not changed.

People can interperate Yoshis stance on mods all they want but unless CBU3, SE and Yoshi crack down and reinforce their ToS ppl will do what they like and this has been proven with this mod.

Shame this has caused such an upset in the community but I can see both sides and it ultimately comes down to Yoshi and his teams mismanagement of the ToS.

This has now come back to bite him in the arse.

Wish I could be empathetic but I really can't.