Thread: A design exercise for job changes, come 8.0

Originally Posted by Valence

I don't think we can. It's been like this since ShB no matter what people want to say. We just gained the 2min meta on top of it as you said.

Yeah... the goal of the OP is trying to think inside this box they imposed to the game. Because realistically they won't change their fight design in 8.0. They may in the future? Absolutely, but defintely not just after making it a selling point for the current expansion.

Reverting, or reworking, the 2min meta to something more flexible is the best we can expect at this rate. At least that's my personal guess.

All I can say is that with over 150 ping:

- If I run out of an orange AoE before it disappears, it doesn't hit me.

- If I move out of an orange AoE at the tail-end of the cast bar, it still doesn't hit me.

- If I escape the range of an AoE after the cast time elapses, it hits me but takes a while to apply the damage/death to me.

- When there is a telegraphed left cleave followed by an immediate right cleave, I have to stand at the right, then move to the left immediately after the cast completes. I think Rrax Yit'ya (A rank) is a great example. You have to identify when the snapshot happens in order to avoid vulns. It happens at the START of the animation, so the moment it begins raising its hand to swipe, the snapshot has happened and it's safe to move there. This has nothing to do with ping, but rather how the game actually functions.

A similar challenge happens with the S rank Atticus the Primogenitor that left bodies everywhere due to how challenging it is to identify when its 3 heads snapshot, but once you figure it out, you can do it consistently. Once again, the start of an animation usually happens after the cast has complete, and since there is no cast bar, looking for the start of the animation works instead.

- Double weaving can be challenging depending on the animation delay. Sometimes it clips for me.

- Swiftcast often doesn't get acknowledged if I press the next action too quickly so it begins casting instead, which defeats the point of it being a "swift" cast.

- Using Interrupt on 1-2 second casts often fails just due to the time it takes to press, my latency and server processing. Fortunately these are mostly exclusive to ARR dungeons or aren't actually meant to be interrupted.

- I have to anticipate where the server thinks I am in order to be good at chocobo racing. It's a certain amount of distance ahead of where I see myself on the screen. It at least used to feel that way in PvP as well, maybe it still is and I don't notice it as much anymore.

Originally Posted by Valence

Even though it didn't seem to bother them to remove everything back in ShB, I do agree, it is not realistic to expect this considering their current design stances. Thus, the ponzi scheme comparison.

Remove what exactly?

I am not interested in trying to analyze what they "could have meant", especially when what I'm referring to and what brought me originally on those very forums back in 2018-2019 was a very objective, material problem focused on MCH playability at high latencies, which they kept dismissing in a condescending way with what amounted essentially to "works on my machine, but if you have evidence otherwise, please provide" (how about you just went to play on NA and see for yourself Yoshida???).

You are arguing about two very different concepts. 1. Playing optimally vs 2. Clearing the fight.

And yes, I do highly agree to play optimally, you do need less than 150, especially if you need to double weave, but I was not talking about that.

As a side fact, I do have a character in NA (a samurai), and I can not only single-weave but also manage to play optimally with it. However, on OCE, for example, I can't. I am physically too far away from the server. The only way I can play on OCE is if I use a VPN and re-route my connection entirely.

Originally Posted by Liyinabi

There are different types of micro lags/stuttering and they're indicative of different things. The types Valence are experiencing are probably indicative of the servers dropping packets or struggling to connect to players

How do you actually test that is their server specifically, that is dropping the packets? You do not connect directly to the SE servers.

If at any given point, any of the nodes/hops that your connection goes through is unresponsive or dropping packets, you will lag, but there is nothing SE can do about it. It's your side and not their side.

You can actually test your connection route to the SE server via the Tracert command in Windows.

I'm going to be honest I do not think the devs will put as much effort into 8.0 as a lot of people think will happen at least with jobs, they may do some very small changes like previous expansions but i wouldn't really expect anything too grand.

If it was down to me, I'd be throwing the whole rigid old job system out, No more new jobs too for the foreseeable, start from scratch and build a new system that focuses on job customizability and ways to play jobs differently from the one set direction they are put on focus, Specs and builds would be great I doubt that would happen though.

Realistically all we can ask is for slightly more fun dps buttons not just on DPS but also on tanks and healers and to be gone with the 2 minute meta which would be at least a good direction for the game.

Maybe it's for the best they skip with adding a new job for 8.0. That way, they can make better adjustment to older jobs.

Originally Posted by Pimsan20

Maybe it's for the best they skip with adding a new job for 8.0. That way, they can make better adjustment to older jobs.

I don't think they will, especially after mentioning that they recognize that it helps selling an expansion.

At best, we can expect just ONE new job and the resource cost of the second one be redirected to old jobs.

I just wrote some of this in another thread but this was mostly what happened with ShB's overhaul. Much of it was praised for the substantial QoL improvements.

1) Removal of subclasses and the need to level other classes for necessary "cross-class" skills. As example, to become a Paladin, Gladiators needed level 15 in Conjurer as well as the 30 in Gladiator. Paladin could use Cure and Raise. Flash and Provoke were specifically Gladiator skills, so effective Warriors were expected to level Gladiator enough to gain these skills. This type of thing was littered across the board with some jobs requiring much more initial work to function at high levels.
2) The addition of the role skills and trimming of other extraneous skills. This fully replaced the above system. Now you simply gain those necessary utility skills as you level up normally, but at the cost of a lot of options for cross-class skills. This also required a lot of internal balancing. Spells like Stoneskin and Protect were deleted and aggro management was retooled to allow DPS to not worry about stacking aggro reducing skills since they simply didn't have them anymore.
3) Removal of "bonus" customizable stats linked to class level up. At certain level thresholds, you would gain a stat point you could freely put into any stat you want. No one "customized" as it was too efficient to put everything in your job's primary stat. This very much hurt if you liked playing both Summoner and Scholar as their stats are both linked to Arcanist. So you had to pick mind for Scholar and nerf Summoner, vice versa, nerf both by doing half and half in mind and intelligence, or keep buying the expensive item that reset said bunus stats.
4) The addition of job gauges. This made it much easier to parse job specific information and added a lot of beloved job identity. It was really rough for some jobs initially, however, since a few just didn't really need a gauge or had a new gimmick tacked on.
5) Retooled Phys.Ranged to remove the cast bar style introduced in Heavensward. Everyone hated it and it was a DPS loss. No, really, there was much rejoicing... For Bards. Machinist has never been entirely well. It's my favorite job.

for Samurai:

-no more cast bars

-bigger flashier attacks with high damage output that consume major amount of kenki to use.

-Tengentsu grants a party wide buff when you are hit providing damage mitigation for yourself and all party members for 6 seconds.

-condense the combos for single target and AoE rotations into one button for console/controller players similar to gunbreaker's continuation.

-give us more variety in gear appearance more robes an more armor in the eastern aesthetic they can be achievement rewards or even gold saucer just please let us look like samurai and not discount monks with a sword thank you.