You know what would increase subs?

[LyrisAdamanteia]

But you don't know that. Everyone says that like its fact. XI would be the perfect counterweight to WOW classic, as its SE's own unique offering that was well beloved. And WOW classic proved there is an audience for more old school experiences. I also don't understand taking the standpoint of guarding a companies money.

There is a good chance they get all their tens of millions back with enough time and support for a game with a proven track record than launching the new crap that has been bombing left and right from their studios. You benefit nothing by telling them hey don't do it, just pocket the change, and stand a lot to gain from bringing back a good game to modern standards. Maybe you don't have time anymore, but a lot of young people do, just like we had time back then. Heck most people that left this game did so because there isn't anything to do in it if you're caught up. The bad story was just the excuse they needed to finish breaking the cycle.

Does anyone here think FFXI remastered would be a worse investment than Babylon's fall?

"Square Enix did not publicly disclose the specific financial losses from Babylon's Fall. However, it's clear the game was a commercial failure and contributed to a significant drop in Square Enix's stock value. The game's poor performance led to the company restructuring its development approach and taking an "extraordinary loss" of 22.1 billion yen (approximately $140 million USD). This loss likely includes costs associated with the game's development and subsequent abandonment. "

I don't. The probabilities of FFXI having been the better bet than that are overwhelmingly clear. Even in its ancient decrepit state FFXI still pulls a profit.

I currently play FFXI and I can concur with Atma's statement. WoW Classic and FFXI are two different eras of mmos. FFXI is still firmly an EQ-like experience, WoW Classic is Classic yes but its an old school server of the modern mmo. Like a lot of people really don't realize what a sea change WoW was to mmos that came before it, the way folks talk about how (say) FFXIV is the baby casual game is how older mmo players were talking about WoW when it came out because it offered a convenience factor that you don't get in the EQ era from games like FFXI.

Like this is really operating under the assumption that FFXI and WoW are similar enough because they came out 2 years apart but in the development of mmos that 2 years was enough to really consider pre-WoW and post-WoW mmos entirely separate genres.

ETA: That isn't to say that WoW is solely responsible for it, as much as folks give that credit to WoW both EQ2 and CoH make a lot of the same changes that WoW did to the mmo formula of the EQ era but neither go as far or as extensively as WoW did nor were either as successful despite both releasing earlier in 2004 than WoW did.

[Atma]

I currently play FFXI and I can concur with Atma's statement. WoW Classic and FFXI are two different eras of mmos. FFXI is still firmly an EQ-like experience, WoW Classic is Classic yes but its an old school server of the modern mmo. Like a lot of people really don't realize what a sea change WoW was to mmos that came before it, the way folks talk about how (say) FFXIV is the baby casual game is how older mmo players were talking about WoW when it came out because it offered a convenience factor that you don't get in the EQ era from games like FFXI.

Like this is really operating under the assumption that FFXI and WoW are similar enough because they came out 2 years apart but in the development of mmos that 2 years was enough to really consider pre-WoW and post-WoW mmos entirely separate genres.

(...)

And I mean don't get me wrong, personally I'd love to see it from a nostalgic standpoint. But I'm also pragmatic, and understand that there's simply no 'mass market appeal' here and I am in a very small minority. I've been playing MMO's since the days of Ultima Online, so I've seen multiple massive seismic shifts in the industry across my time. Once WoW hit the market, that was basically the functional end of EQ style gameplay.

I mean let's be purely realistic - though some of these things may have changed, I don't really think the core of the game changed that much. To play FFXI effectively, first you need to learn to interact with their macro system. You need to learn all the commands, all of the <> identifiers like <t> and <st>. Instead of using abilities from a simple hotbar, you need to create unique macros for each one, often broadcasting information to party chat.

And then that's even better.

You need to read party chat. Like pretty much all the time. You might as well ask the average 18-24 year old in 2025 to saw off their own leg, you'll have a better chance of that succeeding than getting them to read party chat constantly for important information. Then the pacing. FFXI gameplay pacing is s.l.o.w because it's designed for an era where you needed interparty communication via text.

Now let's bring up the fact the game is designed from the ground up to be played with a controller. Mouse and keyboard need not apply. Can you do it? Sure. It's a miserable experience to start out with and it doesn't really improve.

Like this is just a small, small sampling of the reasons why FFXI is just not built to have mainstream success in 2025. The game will forever hold a special place in my heart, but absolutely yes. It is 1000%, unequivocally, without a moment's hesitation in my mind, better for them to take a shot on a brand new franchise or creating a brand new IP than giving a 23 year MMO a facelift.

[LyrisAdamanteia]

And I mean don't get me wrong, personally I'd love to see it from a nostalgic standpoint. But I'm also pragmatic, and understand that there's simply no 'mass market appeal' here and I am in a very small minority. I've been playing MMO's since the days of Ultima Online, so I've seen multiple massive seismic shifts in the industry across my time. Once WoW hit the market, that was basically the functional end of EQ style gameplay.

I mean let's be purely realistic - though some of these things may have changed, I don't really think the core of the game changed that much. To play FFXI effectively, first you need to learn to interact with their macro system. You need to learn all the commands, all of the <> identifiers like <t> and <st>. Instead of using abilities from a simple hotbar, you need to create unique macros for each one, often broadcasting information to party chat.

And then that's even better.

You need to read party chat. Like pretty much all the time. You might as well ask the average 18-24 year old in 2025 to saw off their own leg, you'll have a better chance of that succeeding than getting them to read party chat constantly for important information. Then the pacing. FFXI gameplay pacing is s.l.o.w because it's designed for an era where you needed interparty communication via text.

Now let's bring up the fact the game is designed from the ground up to be played with a controller. Mouse and keyboard need not apply. Can you do it? Sure. It's a miserable experience to start out with and it doesn't really improve.

Like this is just a small, small sampling of the reasons why FFXI is just not built to have mainstream success in 2025. The game will forever hold a special place in my heart, but absolutely yes. It is 1000%, unequivocally, without a moment's hesitation in my mind, better for them to take a shot on a brand new franchise or creating a brand new IP than giving a 23 year MMO a facelift.

Yep, there's so many little conveniences that WoW introduced that just aren't present in FFXI. Things like most of your experience coming from quests rather than grinding mobs on the overworld, boss mechanics having actual, real tells and not having to have your eyes glued to the battle log to see what an enemy is about to do. The conveniences of travel (while ffxi has mounts now they're not that great), travel takes an absolute age in ffxi (though again there are systems in modern xi to alleviate that). Any modernization of ffxi would have to, necessarily, make it play more like ffxiv in order for it to have any traction and no one would be happy with that.

[Atma]

Yep, there's so many little conveniences that WoW introduced that just aren't present in FFXI. Things like most of your experience coming from quests rather than grinding mobs on the overworld, boss mechanics having actual, real tells and not having to have your eyes glued to the battle log to see what an enemy is about to do. The conveniences of travel (while ffxi has mounts now they're not that great), travel takes an absolute age in ffxi (though again there are systems in modern xi to alleviate that). Any modernization of ffxi would have to, necessarily, make it play more like ffxiv in order for it to have any traction and no one would be happy with that.

Additionally I think the only way to revitalize any interest in a reboot of FFXI would be an 'FFXI Classic' which means all the modern things they've added to make the game functionally playable solo? Gone. Back to 2002 with prettier graphics. No trusts, etc. You and 4 other people standing around CN waiting for 45 minutes for your replacement to run out from Jeuno. Only for the next person to have to leave 30 minutes after they arrive.

[MsMisato]

And I mean don't get me wrong, personally I'd love to see it from a nostalgic standpoint. But I'm also pragmatic, and understand that there's simply no 'mass market appeal' here and I am in a very small minority. I've been playing MMO's since the days of Ultima Online, so I've seen multiple massive seismic shifts in the industry across my time. Once WoW hit the market, that was basically the functional end of EQ style gameplay.

I mean let's be purely realistic - though some of these things may have changed, I don't really think the core of the game changed that much. To play FFXI effectively, first you need to learn to interact with their macro system. You need to learn all the commands, all of the <> identifiers like <t> and <st>. Instead of using abilities from a simple hotbar, you need to create unique macros for each one, often broadcasting information to party chat.

And then that's even better.

You need to read party chat. Like pretty much all the time. You might as well ask the average 18-24 year old in 2025 to saw off their own leg, you'll have a better chance of that succeeding than getting them to read party chat constantly for important information. Then the pacing. FFXI gameplay pacing is s.l.o.w because it's designed for an era where you needed interparty communication via text.

Now let's bring up the fact the game is designed from the ground up to be played with a controller. Mouse and keyboard need not apply. Can you do it? Sure. It's a miserable experience to start out with and it doesn't really improve.

Like this is just a small, small sampling of the reasons why FFXI is just not built to have mainstream success in 2025. The game will forever hold a special place in my heart, but absolutely yes. It is 1000%, unequivocally, without a moment's hesitation in my mind, better for them to take a shot on a brand new franchise or creating a brand new IP than giving a 23 year MMO a facelift.

well of course, it was designed exclusively for the PS2 first and foremost which at the time was controller only then later on they added keyboard and mouse support but the input was faster for controller and just way easier. FFXI didn't get released until 2 years later for the US until the Rise of Zilart expansion hit Japan. But I agree SE/CBU3 its better for them to focus on a brand new franchise or creating a new IP instead of doing the old remaster thing for an almost 30 year mmo. They haven't been doing to great on remake front.

[LyrisAdamanteia]

Additionally I think the only way to revitalize any interest in a reboot of FFXI would be an 'FFXI Classic' which means all the modern things they've added to make the game functionally playable solo? Gone. Back to 2002 with prettier graphics. No trusts, etc. You and 4 other people standing around CN waiting for 45 minutes for your replacement to run out from Jeuno. Only for the next person to have to leave 30 minutes after they arrive.

tbh that might get the, maybe tops, 2-3k people who lived through that interested and it might get some more casual onlookers but I can't see that being much of a success. As much as 75 era was goated (and I say that as someone who came into 11 post ff14 who didn't grow up with it but has played on classic servers in addition to retail). I think retail is best for a modern audience because of just how convenient it is but even that is still a far cry. Anyway we're likely to see a third mmo announced by 2030. I don't see FFXIV remaining active past like the mid-2030s, tbh.

[Onshinn]

They will have to ride bad writing and publicity with Dawntrail to the end. Unfortunately, it is historically the most boring dialogues and msq I've ever journeyed. Nowhere near the work quality of what I've had in ARR and Heavensward. By the time, we go to Endwalker... Let's just say, they lost me at Meteion. From that moment nothing has sit well as it ride towards this expansion. I can't pinpoint the exact problem. The writing direction for this expansion is inferior. Most of us just aren't excited about it at all frankly. Nice graphics yes, It just feels soulless. I usually never skip their dialogues But this time, I sadly, felt no excitement in reading any of them.

I'm not one to know who does what in the development of each aspect of the game; But all I know is as I go on this adventure, it doesn't feel like an adventure, its almost like whoever wrote this is hollow inside. It's definitely not Koji Fox anymore am I right? Some choices they made for this expansion doesn't sit well with me. It's almost like a bitter toxic camouflage as a game... That's the feeling it gave. And it also almost felt like there is a power struggle between 2 people trying to spun the narrative in the expansion. Like too many cooks spoil the broth.
As such I guess maybe players felt that trashy feeling; just my observations. It's almost like they are trying to repackage a garbage bin to look like a flower pot.

There were lots of great QoL improvements and graphics. I think the only story I like, was excited about was the subquest with that little sweet corn minion. The battle mechs in the game is still top notch!

it's been 2 weeks, My friends and I haven't really had the excitement to login yet... even though we haven't finish, we didn't feel compel like it use to. But this is just my 2 cents. The last time I got completely honest, I got into some nice trouble. XD.

Maybe they hire the wrong people for this expansion, I can only guess. you can't expect people to sub if they're not compel to login and want to play.

[LyrisAdamanteia]

They will have to ride bad writing and publicity with Dawntrail to the end. Unfortunately, it is historically the most boring dialogues and msq I've ever journeyed. Nowhere near the work quality of what I've had in ARR and Heavensward. By the time, we go to Endwalker... Let's just say, they lost me at Meteion. From that moment nothing has sit well as it ride towards this expansion. I can't pinpoint the exact problem. The writing direction for this expansion is inferior. Most of us just aren't excited about it at all frankly. Nice graphics yes, It just feels soulless. I usually never skip their dialogues But this time, I sadly, felt no excitement in reading any of them.

I'm not one to know who does what in the development of each aspect of the game; But all I know is as I go on this adventure, it doesn't feel like an adventure, its almost like whoever wrote this is hollow inside. It's definitely not Koji Fox anymore am I right? Some choices they made for this expansion doesn't sit well with me. It's almost like a bitter toxic camouflage as a game... That's the feeling it gave. And it also almost felt like there is a power struggle between 2 people trying to spun the narrative in the expansion. Like too many cooks spoil the broth.
As such I guess maybe players felt that trashy feeling; just my observations. It's almost like they are trying to repackage a garbage bin to look like a flower pot.

There were lots of great QoL improvements and graphics. I think the only story I like, was excited about was the subquest with that little sweet corn minion. The battle mechs in the game is still top notch!

it's been 2 weeks, My friends and I haven't really had the excitement to login yet... even though we haven't finish, we didn't feel compel like it use to. But this is just my 2 cents. The last time I got completely honest, I got into some nice trouble. XD.

Maybe they hire the wrong people for this expansion, I can only guess. you can't expect people to sub if they're not compel to login and want to play.

HW had the Sultana's whole assassination handwaved with a "she was actually asleep" and Lolorito, to this day, has still not faced any consequences. Also Koji Fox hasn't been localization lead since Stormblood when he was moved to help work on localization and lore for FFXVI. Kate's been localization lead since Shadowbringers.

[Atma]

They will have to ride bad writing and publicity with Dawntrail to the end. Unfortunately, it is historically the most boring dialogues and msq I've ever journeyed. Nowhere near the work quality of what I've had in ARR and Heavensward. By the time, we go to Endwalker... Let's just say, they lost me at Meteion. From that moment nothing has sit well as it ride towards this expansion. I can't pinpoint the exact problem. The writing direction for this expansion is inferior. Most of us just aren't excited about it at all frankly. Nice graphics yes, It just feels soulless. I usually never skip their dialogues But this time, I sadly, felt no excitement in reading any of them.

I'm not one to know who does what in the development of each aspect of the game; But all I know is as I go on this adventure, it doesn't feel like an adventure, its almost like whoever wrote this is hollow inside. It's definitely not Koji Fox anymore am I right? Some choices they made for this expansion doesn't sit well with me. It's almost like a bitter toxic camouflage as a game... That's the feeling it gave. And it also almost felt like there is a power struggle between 2 people trying to spun the narrative in the expansion. Like too many cooks spoil the broth.
As such I guess maybe players felt that trashy feeling; just my observations. It's almost like they are trying to repackage a garbage bin to look like a flower pot.

There were lots of great QoL improvements and graphics. I think the only story I like, was excited about was the subquest with that little sweet corn minion. The battle mechs in the game is still top notch!

it's been 2 weeks, My friends and I haven't really had the excitement to login yet... even though we haven't finish, we didn't feel compel like it use to. But this is just my 2 cents. The last time I got completely honest, I got into some nice trouble. XD.

Maybe they hire the wrong people for this expansion, I can only guess. you can't expect people to sub if they're not compel to login and want to play.

I mean cool story bro but what does that have to do with giving FFXI a graphics overhaul, which is the topic of this thread?

[AlienDiplomat]

This was highly successful for World of Warcraft and Classic servers.

I sadly missed the FFXI era due to being fully entrenched in modding Morrowind and Oblivion at the time. But a lot of what I hear people say about it sounds interesting and with a visual makeover it would definitely be something I would check out if it was included in my FF subscription.

EDIT: Obviously I wouldn't want the devs to devote TOO much time to it, since XIV is my baby and I wouldn't want to further subtract from it's own continued progress. TBH I have kind of been hoping that AI upscale tools like what NVIDIA is doing for lighting and 3D models in addition to textures might streamline these sort of facelifts in the near future. So actual human devs really only need to go over it at a QA level and tweak anything that is horribly wrong in the upscale.