Mini-Variant Dungeons Should Be Part of MSQ

[Veritas-Ancora]

Before we begin, I know that Variant Dungeons take a lot of work, time, energy, etc.

But what if instead of a regular dungeon for MSQ, we had a mini-variant dungeon? Keeping the variety of the dungeon alive by 2-3 different dungeon paths instead of the 10(?) paths.

For whatever reason, Variant isn't a part of the MSQ and its shelf life expires because people beat all 10 paths and never touch it again. At the same time, people complain about the dungeon getting stale after a few runs.

I'm not saying EVERY patch needs to have a mini-variant dungeon, but if there were 2-3 different paths to keep the dungeon alive, that would be great and keep people more engaged.

[Jeeqbit]

It would make sense to just merge the two concepts.

[Darkstride]

The original Thousand Maws of Totorak had multiple paths, but then it got streamlined into a basic dungeon. People will always complain if MSQ dungeons are anything aside from a braindead, tunnel vision, boss rush. I get what you're saying, and I agree with having more interesting dungeon designs, but then you get backlash from all the players who say it's too complicated for a story dungeon. We already have people raging about the new MSQ dungeon because they can't do personal dodge mechanics.

[Jeeqbit]

I think it would work to do something like:
- A route for better experience gain.
- A route for glam/minions.
- A route for increased tomestones.

And that would open up for people to request a certain route at the start, or lead to tanks picking different routes depending on their interest. Having each route have a defined purpose like that gives purpose to intentionally choosing different routes, instead of always choosing the same one.

[MrKusabi]

I think it would work to do something like:
- A route for better experience gain.
- A route for glam/minions.
- A route for increased tomestones.

And that would open up for people to request a certain route at the start, or lead to tanks picking different routes depending on their interest. Having each route have a defined purpose like that gives purpose to intentionally choosing different routes, instead of always choosing the same one.

A neat idea, but some major issues:

1) Is it majority decides?

a) The EXP route gets ignored after a few weeks, leading to anyone that wants it having to set up party finders exclusively for it.
b) The glam/minion route will most likely also get ignored after a large enough percentage has the minions/glams (unless they randomize the minion/glam reward somehow, but then people would ignore it due to the random nature of the drop)
c) Tomestones would be the only path that survives.


2) Tank decides?

a) Who made the tank god in a party-based game?

[Jeeqbit]

Is it majority decides?

If it had pads like Variant, the pads could have 4 slots. That might lead to fighting and people exiting the dungeon if they don't agree with the route, but maybe that is for the best.

a) The EXP route gets ignored after a few weeks, leading to anyone that wants it having to set up party finders exclusively for it.

I actually think the EXP route would become relevant once a patch dungeon ceases to be "max level". So for example, if it was the 7.4 dungeon, this route would become more common in 8.0, while tomestones may remain a choice if the party is farming poetics.

b) The glam/minion route will most likely also get ignored after a large enough percentage has the minions/glams (unless they randomize the minion/glam reward somehow, but then people would ignore it due to the random nature of the drop)

If it's Tank Decides (or party requests to the tank), I think there would occasionally be cases where people do this. In this way, the tank you get and their personal interest will create the variety.

2) Tank decides?
a) Who made the tank god in a party-based game?

I think to an extent, it would partially be on the healer to decide as well if tank self-heals weren't out of control, because the healer could just take the other route and say "I'm going this way, so".

But there are other purposes we could come up with, such as:

• A poetics route
• An uncapped tomestone route
• A weekly-capped tomestone route
• A materia route?

[MrKusabi]

...

I do love the idea of variety, don't get me wrong. Definitely not against the idea. But Darkstride brought up the old Totorak as an example, and what always happened with roulette dungeons was that people just picked the quickest path only. And having any one party member decide for all goes against the spirit of the game in that no one person is supposed to be any more important than anyone else. I say this as a tank main myself: I am not the leader. There is no leader in FFXIV.

With the EXP route, it would most likely be rather popular for x.0-x.1 cycle, as people are leveling up—one it "ceases to be "max level"" as you mentioned. But it would taper down as more and more people hit max for all (or at least the ones they like) classes. Then you'd wind up with people wanting to level having to hope to find each other, since no one else would want to do a path with no "reward" for them.

Can't really think of a solution for that myself though. Maybe a randomized path (roulette wheel) when you start—that way no one person is deciding anything—with the option for another "spin" if the party votes for it? That way there's still variety, without elevating one role higher than any other.

[Jeeqbit]

I do love the idea of variety, don't get me wrong. Definitely not against the idea. But Darkstride brought up the old Totorak as an example, and what always happened with roulette dungeons was that people just picked the quickest path only.

I wasn't suggesting that any path should necessarily be quicker than the other. That said, even if it was, I think the problem with Toto-rak was that the other paths did not provide a real benefit to anyone, especially after they removed exp from trash.

If you are a tank, and you are currently trying to cap a certain tomestone, maybe you will pick this other path instead, and that's the idea of it really.

And having any one party member decide for all goes against the spirit of the game in that no one person is supposed to be any more important than anyone else.

Realistically, the tank is in charge, and almost everyone that's ever set foot in a dungeon realizes that and follows the tank, considering that they don't want to get mobbed. I think trying to pretend that's not the case is unrealistic, and the only way they could hope to combat it is if they had "4 person pads" to unlock routes, but this would slow runs down and annoy players. It would be better for the tank to decide in my opinion.

it would taper down as more and more people hit max for all (or at least the ones they like) classes. Then you'd wind up with people wanting to level having to hope to find each other, since no one else would want to do a path with no "reward" for them.

Oh, I'm not saying there would necessarily be "no reward" for the others. It could just be less. For example, you might still get tomestones for doing an exp route, but you'd get more from another route. So if you queued not on a tank, you might just have to accept the lesser rewards, or make a request to the tank while loading in.

[MrKusabi]

I wasn't suggesting that any path should necessarily be quicker than the other.

This was my bad. Wasn't suggesting you did, just that that tends to be what people wind up doing.

Realistically, the tank is in charge, and almost everyone that's ever set foot in a dungeon realizes that and follows the tank, considering that they don't want to get mobbed. I think trying to pretend that's not the case is unrealistic...

We fundamentally disagree on this one. This mindset is how you get YPYT tanks who get pissed off when DPS run ahead so they can arms length, or Sages trying to pop their shields for bonus damage. No one person needs to lead. The Tank just needs to grab aggro. Pace is set by the party.

Oh, I'm not saying there would necessarily be "no reward" for the others. It could just be less. For example, you might still get tomestones for doing an exp route, but you'd get more from another route.

That would prolly be a decent way to handle things. I'd personally want to be able to pick an alternate reward, but that would go against the structure of what you were asking for, so lesser other reward makes sense.