The new dungeon is still ENTIRELY too easy

[Liyinabi]

Jumping from one side to the extreme. To make having to scrape people off the ground it'd have to be savage variant, which we know it'll never be in a roulette. Don't be dramatic to make your point.

It's not common, but I do get dungeons with groups that just can't dodge mechanics to save their lives and end up getting one-shot by the next thing that hits them after taking on too many vulns, even as it is. Sometimes it's my casual friends, and sometimes it's just randoms. I don't need to be dramatic or make things up to make my point if they're actual scenarios I end up in.

[Liyinabi]

They had how many expansions and up to 11 years, is that not enough?

From my experience, apparently not I'd love for people to scale their abilities proportionately with their level/gameplay experience, but it just doesn't always happen. Not naming names, but I've watched some raiders get worse as expansions go by because they can't keep up with mechanics or changes in job design.

Trust me, I want dungeons to get harder so I don't feel like I'm falling asleep at the keyboard, but I have very little faith in the worst of the worst to keep up. As much as I want a more fun gameplay experience for myself, I'm not willing to sacrifice my time or braincells watching a party member walk themselves into certain death for the nteenth time because I made the sin of queuing into an expert roulette. This is kind of just a consequence of encounter design slacking in EW + stat squish making a lot of older synced content a joke, imho.

[Liyinabi]

Alas, you guys already have a hard content to do. Dawntrail was a raider fest, with occult crescent normal being so hard that only raiders could clear it. You will have your ultimate, your shiny new savage tier.

Btw this is crazy because I literally sat in hours-long debriefs before, during, and after my Forked Tower clear where a bunch of people in the static admitted that they're casuals who don't usually do raid-style content. Admittedly, we cleared it kind of late, but we still very much cleared with minimum corpses picked off of the ground in the earlier sections/bosses that we had all progged mostly as a group.

Also, there's no guarantee we'll even get ultimate this expansion. They've honestly been horrible with their transparency with ultimate releases + exact savage dates all expac :/

[theunhappypotato]

From my experience, apparently not I'd love for people to scale their abilities proportionately with their level/gameplay experience, but it just doesn't always happen. Not naming names, but I've watched some raiders get worse as expansions go by because they can't keep up with mechanics or changes in job design.

Trust me, I want dungeons to get harder so I don't feel like I'm falling asleep at the keyboard, but I have very little faith in the worst of the worst to keep up. As much as I want a more fun gameplay experience for myself, I'm not willing to sacrifice my time or braincells watching a party member walk themselves into certain death for the nteenth time because I made the sin of queuing into an expert roulette. This is kind of just a consequence of encounter design slacking in EW + stat squish making a lot of older synced content a joke, imho.

honestly you're right about it, everyone wants more "complex" jobs and whatnot but vast majority of people wouldnt be able to actually play those jobs and would just default to the easiest thing itskinda sad but its the truth so the only real complexity in this game can come from the fights at this point

[JadeCurtiss]

I'd like some examples because this statement is fundamentally baffling to read?

Stone Vigil (Hard) Boss 2
Snowcloak Boss 2 (pre-patch)
Aetherochemical Research Facility Boss 3 (post-patch ironically)
Sohr Khai Boss 3 (pre-patch)
Bardam's Mettle Boss 2
Castrum Abania Boss 2 (pre-patch)
Castrum Abania Boss 3 (pre-patch)
The Burn Boss 3 (pre-patch)

You may notice a lot of these have the caveat of 'pre-patch'. This is because a lot of these bosses had mechanics changed or removed to allow Duty Support. Regardless, these are examples that require some basic problem solving or adequate reactions to clear smoothly.

[theunhappypotato]

Stone Vigil (Hard) Boss 2
Snowcloak Boss 2 (pre-patch)
Aetherochemical Research Facility Boss 3 (post-patch ironically)
Sohr Khai Boss 3 (pre-patch)
Bardam's Mettle Boss 2
Castrum Abania Boss 2 (pre-patch)
Castrum Abania Boss 3 (pre-patch)
The Burn Boss 3 (pre-patch)

You may notice a lot of these have the caveat of 'pre-patch'. This is because a lot of these bosses had mechanics changed or removed to allow Duty Support. Regardless, these are examples that require some basic problem solving or adequate reactions to clear smoothly.

cant have simple problem solving skills in my weeb mmo or its too hard

[Noviside]

Kinda think if they did hard mode dungeons they could satisfy both camps. Problem is what should the rewards be?

[Valence]

Not naming names, but I've watched some raiders get worse as expansions go by because they can't keep up with mechanics or changes in job design.

I feel attacked

[Valence]

Stone Vigil (Hard) Boss 2
Snowcloak Boss 2 (pre-patch)
Aetherochemical Research Facility Boss 3 (post-patch ironically)
Sohr Khai Boss 3 (pre-patch)
Bardam's Mettle Boss 2
Castrum Abania Boss 2 (pre-patch)
Castrum Abania Boss 3 (pre-patch)
The Burn Boss 3 (pre-patch)

You may notice a lot of these have the caveat of 'pre-patch'. This is because a lot of these bosses had mechanics changed or removed to allow Duty Support. Regardless, these are examples that require some basic problem solving or adequate reactions to clear smoothly.

The kind of difficulty you're bringing up is a completely different type of complexity tied to a completely different type of encounter design and dungeon experience. I am not saying that this is insignificant, but most of what you cite comes from obscure solutions required to clear a boss, solutions not being clearly accessible to the average jane or joe going through said casual content. The difficulty isn't in execution or how to play the content, but in figuring out what the game is expecting out of you, which understandably could make this kind of design bad in other ways.

- Boss 2 of Snowcloak is a perfect example that required people to know they had to aim the snowballs at the boss, although not doing so you'd kill it eventually anyway.
- ARCF is problematic because post patch, this is very much in line with current dungeon difficulty that's all about execution and understanding the DDR patterns. It wasn't as so back then, and the one thing people had to understand was that they had to jump into the tears during the room wide, which is similar to case 1: a boss gimmick. I'm not super fond of gimmicks but that's a different type of difficulty.
- I've never seen people struggling with old Sohr Khai ever personally... And I've ran this countless times in expert roulette with both vets and new players.
- Bardam is literally an old, early version putting out the base lego blocks of the current DDR we're dealing with.
- Castrum Abania boss 2 was definitely a problem, and again, tied to a boss gimmick that was actually lethal to boot.
- Boss 3 is very much an example of current DDR models, but it's true that it had spicy tank attacks that could catch unprepared tanks off, and that's closer to the kind of difficulty the older battle system had. And outlier in casual dungeons though.
- Yeah the Burn killed a lot of parties. A combination of DDR models (the hexa shaped AoEs on the floor) and older battle system mechanics (ice spikes), combined to a boss gimmick (the fog). A pretty hefty concoction.

Still, of the few that aren't tied to bad gimmicks, some are outliers (like mist dragon). Most encounters before ShB were crazy easy. Some actually had great mechanics in the older fashion, but unfortunately could be bruteforced through without even noticing (take say, the second boss of the Aery for example).

[JadeCurtiss]

The kind of difficulty you're bringing up is a completely different type of complexity tied to a completely different type of encounter design and dungeon experience. I am not saying that this is insignificant, but most of what you cite comes from obscure solutions required to clear a boss, solutions not being clearly accessible to the average jane or joe going through said casual content. The difficulty isn't in execution or how to play the content, but in figuring out what the game is expecting out of you, which understandably could make this kind of design bad in other ways.

- Boss 2 of Snowcloak is a perfect example that required people to know they had to aim the snowballs at the boss, although not doing so you'd kill it eventually anyway.
- ARCF is problematic because post patch, this is very much in line with current dungeon difficulty that's all about execution and understanding the DDR patterns. It wasn't as so back then, and the one thing people had to understand was that they had to jump into the tears during the room wide, which is similar to case 1: a boss gimmick. I'm not super fond of gimmicks but that's a different type of difficulty.
- I've never seen people struggling with old Sohr Khai ever personally... And I've ran this countless times in expert roulette with both vets and new players.
- Bardam is literally an old, early version putting out the base lego blocks of the current DDR we're dealing with.
- Castrum Abania boss 2 was definitely a problem, and again, tied to a boss gimmick that was actually lethal to boot.
- Boss 3 is very much an example of current DDR models, but it's true that it had spicy tank attacks that could catch unprepared tanks off, and that's closer to the kind of difficulty the older battle system had. And outlier in casual dungeons though.
- Yeah the Burn killed a lot of parties. A combination of DDR models (the hexa shaped AoEs on the floor) and older battle system mechanics (ice spikes), combined to a boss gimmick (the fog). A pretty hefty concoction.

Still, of the few that aren't tied to bad gimmicks, some are outliers (like mist dragon). Most encounters before ShB were crazy easy. Some actually had great mechanics in the older fashion, but unfortunately could be bruteforced through without even noticing (take say, the second boss of the Aery for example).

Point being none of the current dungeons are any more demanding than the examples given, in my personal opinion. It was not a widespread problem then, therefore it shouldn't be now. This is all subjective ultimately. But the assertion that we are dealing with Extreme/Savage level mechanics now is totally absurd.