Can we please

[Ephremjlm]

That's a lot of reasonably cherry picked nonsense right there. Won't lie. I'll keep things short and sweet, and assume that you're arguing in good faith. I'll not sink to accusing someone of trolling based on the premise of disagreement - that's pretty damned lazy.

1. You're confusing requirement with relevance. You're choosing to ignore an entire gear progression system, on the basis that you don't like it and seem to believe it's irrelevant. Here, let's examine why. First.

It's a common, well utilised progression pillar and is arguably the fastest way to get back into raiding upon rejoining the game. Crafted gear is -consistently- BIS on release. It drives the player economy. It isn't fluff. It's a core system. Money made via crafted gear is pumped back into food, potions, housing, PENTAMELDING, etcetera. There are ENTIRE content systems built specifically around it; Ishgard Restoration, Custom Deliveries, Collectibles, etcetera. Essential? No. One of the core systems of progression used by the community? Absolutely yes.

I guess I'll just address this point by point, and if you're being good faith as well then I'll dial it back.

1. I understand the role crafted gear plays in the game, you don't have to explain that to me. The fact is that it is still arbitrary. You don't have to engage with it AT ALL. Ever. The system in itself doesn't discredit at all why we should be able to trade simple dungeon gear, especially if the crafted gear is ALWAYS better. Gear for combat's sake isn't even a true endgame for like 90% of players. Most players care about cosmetics, mounts, and minions. Again this is all off topic but for the claim it needs to be said as a supporting point.

2. You're wrong. The simple fact that you can go to the market board and buy catch up gear completely invalidates the "grind" argument. And it did. Being that we didn't want a single person to blow all of their gil, we banded together and spent accordingly. We did the run that night, got the clear, geared the people. So unless you tell me that you don't think people should be able to do that the argument about needing to grind every so many months is inconsistent.

3. Lol okay hold on, we talk about cherry picked information, and this is what you're doing with this argument. I told you I played older MMO's prior including FFXI. I'm all for ACTUALLY making gearing a worthwhile and fun endeavor, and removing unnecessary QOL that takes away player engagement. But you aren't arguing that at all. You're saying that because others don't like the system that is currently there, they're wrong and you're trying to use a macro argument in multiple things that aren't actually related like player retention, in place of a micro arguement. Again, being able to trade dungeon gear, DOESN'T break anything here. It actually makes the gear much less useless, and gives specific dungeons AT YOUR LEVEL more replayability, as opposed to dailies that make you use lesser kits at lower levels. Or does player retention only matter in its current form with arbitrary tokens and forced grinds down a certain path? How about MORE options, that in turn gives people more things to do. More dots on the line to hit on their climb of the vertical progression.

4. I'm sorry for being dismissive, but if you really think about it for more than 5 seconds, you would realize that it's ignorant to argue the point that dungeon gear specifically breaks anything.

"In your mind, would we all just walk around in a lobby and insta-queue into every new piece of content, all at the same ilevel? These systems are designed promote engagement."
- Where did I say that at all? If im advocating for more ways to get gear, doesn't that insinuate that there is actually more to do? What do you even define as promoting engagement? Dailies? Making people buy gear off the market board? These aren't even mobile game levels of engagement and for someone who played those other cited MMO's (im guessing in their heyday) then you should clearly understand this.

"The only lee-way in this instance, is that, at the moment, prices"
- other people have already answered this. At this point you're just arguing just to argue. You're expecting people who have a two hour timeslot to play together to jump through a million hoops to do a simple run on that specific night. We had our reasons for going the route we did. We accomplished what we set out to do and NONE of that discredits why dungeon gear should be tradable.

"And replying to a few of the things you said to Kaurhz…"
1. You misunderstand. My point is that they said we would have to have some level of investment to come back and play. But with an insanely vertical gearing system, and the combat being as easy as it is with no real variables for gearing, then why? Your rotation not changing is just another aspect of that, in that the reason isn't investment for skill reasons.
2.idk how you extrapolated my answer to this with the response you gave. If you can buy gear off the market board, you obviously don't care about the players time investment when they come back. So why gate keep LESSER dungeon gear. Simple.
3. You just gave a text book non answer to this. And that's my exact point. If we could trade dungeon gear to get the person over the hump, then who gives a damn. It would be so much easier to argue that you simply like the game the way it is and you want no changes to happen at all. I would even respect that opinion. Maybe this is the specific flavor combination you most enjoy. That's actually a solid answer lol.

I appreciate that last comment. It took us about 30 minutes to gear two different people to 725. It was long and hard work, but someone had to do it.

[Haru304]

I'll try and keep this one a bit briefer because I respect the effort you're putting into responding to so many people.

1. I'd argue that it isn't arbitrary because it would directly impact sale of crafted gear, in some way, shape or form.

2. You still need to spend gil that you've accumulated to buy gear, which then goes directly into another player's pocket. On a positive note - glad to hear you all put some team-work in. I admire that. You could've also all just run content together to gear up.

3. Being able to trade dungeon gear would likely undermine current systems of progression and player interaction. It would certainly effect the market board, considerably. Grind is not arbitrary.

The rest of my post got swallowed. I hate this forum.

4. It promotes engagement because the aquicisition of gil, and communication with crafters and other players -is- engagement. I don't know how much gil you are personally able to earn on a two hour time-slot, but I have a bare minimum approach which nets millions if not tens of millions, with very little time investment. Failing that - I'm generally ready and prepped for content I'm interested in tackling. It promotes player engagement when I ask my friends weeks prior if they want to run roulettes, or help me out with some crafting or gathering.

If we opt your mentality, that you're expressing, why should we stop at -just- dungeon gear? Why not make it so that one active player can just tomestone farm for their entire FC and friendlist? Why not just make it so that soul-binding is obsolete? I mean heck. If gear level is so arbitrary, then why don't we just remove stats entirely and make it so that level is the only requirement?

[Ephremjlm]

I'll try and keep this one a bit briefer because I respect the effort you're putting into responding to so many people.

1. I'd argue that it isn't arbitrary because it would directly impact sale of crafted gear, in some way, shape or form.

2. You still need to spend gil that you've accumulated to buy gear, which then goes directly into another player's pocket. On a positive note - glad to hear you all put some team-work in. I admire that. You could've also all just run content together to gear up.

3. Being able to trade dungeon gear would likely undermine current systems of progression and player interaction. It would certainly effect the market board, considerably.

I appreciate you words, I totally didn't think this would turn into what it did when I initially posted this but here we are lol.

1. I mean I can't in good faith argue that it wouldn't affect sales "at all" I just think that making something that is currently useless, worthwhile makes more sense. And another dot on the line in their vertical progression if anything just keeps players engaged and chasing those higher numbers. Also idk man they didn't seem to care at all about the market when OC released lmao (not trying to argue that, I just thought it was funny)

2. The problem that I keep mentioning is that we didn't all have the time available to play together and we wanted to make it happen. We did so mission accomplished.

3. I mean I already answered this in point 1, but yeah I think it would add not take away.

[Ephremjlm]

You've supposedly played mmo's for over 20 years, and you unironically think an ilvl 725 requirement 19 weeks after 7.2 is too hard?

Also you claimed "there was either none left on the market board, or it was all super expensive." You checked every MB on crystal and couldn't find any "affordable" crafted gear.

This reads like "We didn't do much for months but still feel like we should be able to do the new content day 1 of the new patch."

Lol I've read plenty of your comments now to know you're bad faith so I'll have fun and engage with you.

1. Did I say it was too hard? or did I say that there was an arbitrary barrier with trading lesser dungeon gear that most people don't use? And yes I have played MMO's for over 20 years and I would be willing to bet that you probably would think they're too hard.

2. Yeah like others have explained, because this patch introduced the upgrades to the crafted gear, people bought most of them, and the ones that were left were insanely expensive. We didn't know this because we were gone. I literally saw examples of legs going for 700k and even an earring going for 1.5mil. My bad for being a good FC mate and trying to help others so they can also participate in content with us and have fun. It is supposed to be an MMO after all. But I guess you people have played the game on solo mode for so long that you don't understand kindness or empathy.

3. YEAH kinda, that is if we can get the gear. Tell me, when you hit level 100 at the beginning of a patch cycle, does your rotation change AT ALL after that? Oh it doesn't? so literally every boss there after your skills and ability to perform your rotation stay the same regardless of the gear you have on? Oh wow, so the only barrier to entry is the minimum gear level, and all we have to do is meet that? okay, well you're telling me it's okay that we buy it off the marketboard but it's not okay to trade someone dungeon gear that most of the time no one uses anyways? Make that make sense to me. You people are ridiculous.

[Ephremjlm]

I like dogging on the game as much as the next guy, but this just ain't it.

If anything, the game is too friendly for people that take breaks.

As far as I am concerned if you take an extended break then you really should be expected to have some level of investment before being able to engage with the new stuff.

It really shouldn't be that you can take a break for 4-8 months and then come back and be immediately caught up.

I'm gonna dial back my tone with you because I don't think you aren't trolling or speaking in bad faith.

I generally would agree with you, but that is NOT how this game operates. You can basically play it solo, or in multiplayer content, play it "solo like" in that you don't have to talk to anyone, you just do the mechanics.

On top of that, I think for this game that opinion is wrong for these reasons.
1. Once you reach max level at the base of an expansion your rotation and way you play your job doesn't change at all for the rest of the patch cycle.
2. No one seems to have a problem buying the gear off the market board right? So whats the difference with being able to trade dungeon gear that most people don't use.
3. What arbitrary time investment are we talking? Do we need to do level 50 dailies with a lesser kit build? Do we need to run pelu pelu fetch quests?

Again as someone who's played MMO's that actually require players to do things I very much understand your sentiment, but the game is currently insanely easy, and I don't think trading dungeon gear so that some FC mates who had lesser gear could reach the arbitrary min ilvl matters when the skills to do their rotation hasn't changed for over a year. However if this was FFXI, Everquest, OSRS, or Classis WOW then I would agree. But the game currently works this way and from blowing a ton of gil we eventually did the run.

[Haru304]

2. Reduced grind //=// Zero grind. You have catch up mechanics to utilise that require extremely minimal time investment. It's not a lobby based game. It's an MMORPG. Minimised friction is a marketing strategy - not an absolute rule.

3. You can actually accomplish just that! Crafted Gear. Tomestone Gear. Duty Roulettes. Community support. All methods that require... arguably, less effort than farming dungeon loot to hand off to your friends who don't play actively. At least on an individual level. Acting like player retention isn't important in an MMORPG -regardless- of what the developer claims for marketing purposes, is... really silly. It's an ecosystem. It's not supposed to be 'one and done'. But if you want it to be that way, the forementioned systems... all facilitate that. QoL //=// Bypassing Progression.

You can quickly gear to minimum level.
You can play with your friends while doing it.
And you can take breaks, without any penalties whatsoever.

4. Dismissive rhetoric with ignorance for how it might impact the progression and engagement system as a whole.

Calling my views ‘weird’ doesn’t change the fact that I’m arguing based on how FFXIV’s systems are designed and function in practice. FFXIV strikes a deliberate balance between player engagement and accessibility — something classic FFXI and Everquest approached very differently. Both games that I've played at length, by the by. I engage with crafters and gatherers regularly, and friends who want to partake in gearing up via content. You have this twisted idea in your head that a marketing focus on QOL is the same thing as... removing all and any barriers to entry. In your mind, would we all just walk around in a lobby and insta-queue into every new piece of content, all at the same ilevel? These systems are designed promote engagement.

The only lee-way in this instance, is that, at the moment, prices on Crystal are skewed towards a full crafted set costing around.. if I had to estimate based on previous dealings, around four million? I don't really think that's a lot for an active player to jump back in and play, but you wouldn't even be paying that much if you had at least one friend or FC member that's invested into crafting - and the community is chockful of people who do -just- that. Who are happy to even toss shit away for free.

And replying to a few of the things you said to Kaurhz…

Your rotation has very little to do with your gear or stats, so that's irrelevant.
Crafted gear requires a lot of player investment and communication, along with economic growth - with entire systems surrounding it. Acting like player economic interaction in an MMORPG is some kind of irrelevant side thought is... weird.
Whatever arbitrary time investment we're talking is the bare minimum time investment it takes to grab some higher ilevel gear - in a game with plenty of catch up mechanics.

Glad to hear you spent some gil, validated other player's efforts and enjoyed your run!

[Auro_Seldaris]

snip

You can just edit your original post to get past the character limit, if you didnt know.

[AmiableApkallu]

Again as someone who's played MMO's that actually require players to do things I very much understand your sentiment, but the game is currently insanely easy, and I don't think trading dungeon gear so that some FC mates who had lesser gear could reach the arbitrary min ilvl matters when the skills to do their rotation hasn't changed for over a year.

(emphasis mine)

This is why I said earlier that "if you don't like FFXIV's gear treadmill, fair enough." Because that's exactly the problem you're describing. Some people stepped off the treadmill for a bit, and now, in the current state of the game, they have to spend some effort or gil to catch up. (Why do we need to increase our ilvl? Because SE said so. It otherwise generally makes no difference to one's experience unless you're running older content unsynced.)

So, that said, why make only dungeon gear tradable? Why not also tomestone gear? Normal raid gear? Savage raid gear? You had extra dungeon gear on hand. I've had extra normal raid tokens and tomestones on hand. Where would you draw the line that says this gear must needs be acquired through one's own blood, sweat, and tears?

[Boblawblah]

(emphasis mine)

This is why I said earlier that "if you don't like FFXIV's gear treadmill, fair enough." Because that's exactly the problem you're describing. Some people stepped off the treadmill for a bit, and now, in the current state of the game, they have to spend some effort or gil to catch up. (Why do we need to increase our ilvl? Because SE said so. It otherwise generally makes no difference to one's experience unless you're running older content unsynced.)

So, that said, why make only dungeon gear tradable? Why not also tomestone gear? Normal raid gear? Savage raid gear? You had extra dungeon gear on hand. I've had extra normal raid tokens and tomestones on hand. Where would you draw the line that says this gear must needs be acquired through one's own blood, sweat, and tears?

Id be fine if SE just gave me new gear (cosmetics) every 'x' level and that was it. I have no desire to go on the gear treadmill. I feel no arpg 'WOOOO' when I get something good.

[Ephremjlm]

checked your tomestone. you don't actually play. gg.

It's pretty obvious. No one playing since Stormblood would complain about a 1.5M earring listing 4 months after release. It sells for cheaper than that, as early as day 1. Cheapest right now is 80k. Also called you "miserable" while asking for empathy multiple times in this thread. Clear ragebait.

I just think it's funny that you people think you're defending something, but you are the shining example of toxicity that pushes people away from this community. You don't want the game to be better, and you don't actually want the game to be more popular, you just want your little echo chamber and safe space that makes you feel like you're some kind of "god gamer" in arguably the most casual game out because that's how you have determined your worth. GG's mates. There are no arguments to be had with people of this much bad faith.