Can we please

[Ephremjlm]

Considering you probably robbed a poor raider who was just trying to get some of those pieces to update their FRU BiS, this is deserved.

Brother your lack of empathy, and your weird obsessed mindset which makes this game your personality is showing.

Now that there are trusts, I always do first runs solo so I actually learn the mechanics. In turn all the gear I got I was actually willing to give away to others who were in need, but couldn't do so because of the arbitrary trade restriction. As far as the raid itself, what I don't need I usually pass unless I want something specifically.

Kinda sounds like the complete opposite of how you just painted me doesn't it? Regardless, I have the exact same right to the gear that anyone else does. Our subs give us the exact same rights.

[Haru304]

I actually don't know what to say and part of me thinks you're trolling. You are factually wrong.

1. Crafting and gathering is not an essential progression pillar. I've played FFXIV since the beginning of Stormblood, crafting/gathering has NEVER been a requirement.

2. I'm fine with MMO's requiring time investment. This isn't the one that usually does though. In fact it's literally in their marketing. Don't believe me?
"Experience a new generation of MMORPG where grinding is kept to a minimum so you can enjoy more immediate results!" - https://freetrial.finalfantasyxiv.co...id=22365075108

3. Yes in that specific moment we wanted a short path to get to the minimum item level for a run so that EVERYONE could play together.....like you normally would in an MMO. Whether or not we leave afterwards should have nothing to do with anything. Yoshi P. specifically tells us to leave when we have nothing that we want to do. And again, you are FACTUALLY wrong. The game DOES work that way. And it DID work. YOU people wanted all the QOL and so the expectation when playing the game is that we don't have weird arbitrary barriers like this one.

4. My man trading dungeon gear that almost no one uses would not affect RMT at all. It also wouldn't affect ANYTHING as far as engagement. You still have your little tombstone hamster wheel that ends up being BIS in most instances.

It's funny, for someone who wants so much player participation and engagement, i'm shocked FFXIV is your go to game. I'd like to see how you fare logging into classic FFXI, or Everquest, because your answers make it sound like you have some weird idea of how you think the game should operate vs how it does and you want to verbally shoot down anyone who disagrees with you. But again, I'd say you should take it up with Yoshi P. not me. I'm just playing the game the way it works and is currently intended.

That's a lot of reasonably cherry picked nonsense right there. Won't lie. I'll keep things short and sweet, and assume that you're arguing in good faith. I'll not sink to accusing someone of trolling based on the premise of disagreement - that's pretty damned lazy.

1. You're confusing requirement with relevance. You're choosing to ignore an entire gear progression system, on the basis that you don't like it and seem to believe it's irrelevant. Here, let's examine why. First.

It's a common, well utilised progression pillar and is arguably the fastest way to get back into raiding upon rejoining the game. Crafted gear is -consistently- BIS on release. It drives the player economy. It isn't fluff. It's a core system. Money made via crafted gear is pumped back into food, potions, housing, PENTAMELDING, etcetera. There are ENTIRE content systems built specifically around it; Ishgard Restoration, Custom Deliveries, Collectibles, etcetera. Essential? No. One of the core systems of progression used by the community? Absolutely yes.

[Haru304]

2. Reduced grind //=// Zero grind. You have catch up mechanics to utilise that require extremely minimal time investment. It's not a lobby based game. It's an MMORPG. Minimised friction is a marketing strategy - not an absolute rule.

3. You can actually accomplish just that! Crafted Gear. Tomestone Gear. Duty Roulettes. Community support. All methods that require... arguably, less effort than farming dungeon loot to hand off to your friends who don't play actively. At least on an individual level. Acting like player retention isn't important in an MMORPG -regardless- of what the developer claims for marketing purposes, is... really silly. It's an ecosystem. It's not supposed to be 'one and done'. But if you want it to be that way, the forementioned systems... all facilitate that. QoL //=// Bypassing Progression.

You can quickly gear to minimum level.
You can play with your friends while doing it.
And you can take breaks, without any penalties whatsoever.

4. Dismissive rhetoric with ignorance for how it might impact the progression and engagement system as a whole.

Calling my views ‘weird’ doesn’t change the fact that I’m arguing based on how FFXIV’s systems are designed and function in practice. FFXIV strikes a deliberate balance between player engagement and accessibility — something classic FFXI and Everquest approached very differently. Both games that I've played at length, by the by. I engage with crafters and gatherers regularly, and friends who want to partake in gearing up via content. You have this twisted idea in your head that a marketing focus on QOL is the same thing as... removing all and any barriers to entry. In your mind, would we all just walk around in a lobby and insta-queue into every new piece of content, all at the same ilevel? These systems are designed promote engagement.

The only lee-way in this instance, is that, at the moment, prices on Crystal are skewed towards a full crafted set costing around.. if I had to estimate based on previous dealings, around four million? I don't really think that's a lot for an active player to jump back in and play, but you wouldn't even be paying that much if you had at least one friend or FC member that's invested into crafting - and the community is chockful of people who do -just- that. Who are happy to even toss shit away for free.

And replying to a few of the things you said to Kaurhz…

Your rotation has very little to do with your gear or stats, so that's irrelevant.
Crafted gear requires a lot of player investment and communication, along with economic growth - with entire systems surrounding it. Acting like player economic interaction in an MMORPG is some kind of irrelevant side thought is... weird.
Whatever arbitrary time investment we're talking is the bare minimum time investment it takes to grab some higher ilevel gear - in a game with plenty of catch up mechanics.

Glad to hear you spent some gil, validated other player's efforts and enjoyed your run!

[Auro_Seldaris]

snip

You can just edit your original post to get past the character limit, if you didnt know.

[Kaurhz]

Considering you probably robbed a poor raider who was just trying to get some of those pieces to update their FRU BiS, this is deserved.

LOOOOOOL.....

'Robbed'

LOL

[Doki]

"I took a long break and expect to cake walk through content others have worked towards for months."

[brinn12]

The Underkeep (ilvl 705) rewards ilvl 725 gear and four Tomestone items (each selling for 12k+). Just one day before the patch, the latest crafted gear pieces were selling for 50k to 100k, and we also have normal raids.

This isn't about empathy. Most people in this thread are just doing basic math and understand the obvious problems that trading dungeon gear would cause.

Anyone can gear up from 700 to 720 (latest dungeon requirement) in a single day. It's an objective fact, not up for debate. Some level of grind is expected, considering item level 700 was attainable about a year ago, or 365 days, when the expansion released. Even then, just a few runs of The Underkeep are enough, which is quite generous.

And if people somehow have no gil despite having nothing significant to spend on, while also deciding to gear up on patch week when prices increase, it's not SE's problem. The game still needs an economy, crafted gear progression, and dungeon content that lasts more than a single day.

[Ephremjlm]

That's a lot of reasonably cherry picked nonsense right there. Won't lie. I'll keep things short and sweet, and assume that you're arguing in good faith. I'll not sink to accusing someone of trolling based on the premise of disagreement - that's pretty damned lazy.

1. You're confusing requirement with relevance. You're choosing to ignore an entire gear progression system, on the basis that you don't like it and seem to believe it's irrelevant. Here, let's examine why. First.

It's a common, well utilised progression pillar and is arguably the fastest way to get back into raiding upon rejoining the game. Crafted gear is -consistently- BIS on release. It drives the player economy. It isn't fluff. It's a core system. Money made via crafted gear is pumped back into food, potions, housing, PENTAMELDING, etcetera. There are ENTIRE content systems built specifically around it; Ishgard Restoration, Custom Deliveries, Collectibles, etcetera. Essential? No. One of the core systems of progression used by the community? Absolutely yes.

I guess I'll just address this point by point, and if you're being good faith as well then I'll dial it back.

1. I understand the role crafted gear plays in the game, you don't have to explain that to me. The fact is that it is still arbitrary. You don't have to engage with it AT ALL. Ever. The system in itself doesn't discredit at all why we should be able to trade simple dungeon gear, especially if the crafted gear is ALWAYS better. Gear for combat's sake isn't even a true endgame for like 90% of players. Most players care about cosmetics, mounts, and minions. Again this is all off topic but for the claim it needs to be said as a supporting point.

2. You're wrong. The simple fact that you can go to the market board and buy catch up gear completely invalidates the "grind" argument. And it did. Being that we didn't want a single person to blow all of their gil, we banded together and spent accordingly. We did the run that night, got the clear, geared the people. So unless you tell me that you don't think people should be able to do that the argument about needing to grind every so many months is inconsistent.

3. Lol okay hold on, we talk about cherry picked information, and this is what you're doing with this argument. I told you I played older MMO's prior including FFXI. I'm all for ACTUALLY making gearing a worthwhile and fun endeavor, and removing unnecessary QOL that takes away player engagement. But you aren't arguing that at all. You're saying that because others don't like the system that is currently there, they're wrong and you're trying to use a macro argument in multiple things that aren't actually related like player retention, in place of a micro arguement. Again, being able to trade dungeon gear, DOESN'T break anything here. It actually makes the gear much less useless, and gives specific dungeons AT YOUR LEVEL more replayability, as opposed to dailies that make you use lesser kits at lower levels. Or does player retention only matter in its current form with arbitrary tokens and forced grinds down a certain path? How about MORE options, that in turn gives people more things to do. More dots on the line to hit on their climb of the vertical progression.

4. I'm sorry for being dismissive, but if you really think about it for more than 5 seconds, you would realize that it's ignorant to argue the point that dungeon gear specifically breaks anything.

"In your mind, would we all just walk around in a lobby and insta-queue into every new piece of content, all at the same ilevel? These systems are designed promote engagement."
- Where did I say that at all? If im advocating for more ways to get gear, doesn't that insinuate that there is actually more to do? What do you even define as promoting engagement? Dailies? Making people buy gear off the market board? These aren't even mobile game levels of engagement and for someone who played those other cited MMO's (im guessing in their heyday) then you should clearly understand this.

"The only lee-way in this instance, is that, at the moment, prices"
- other people have already answered this. At this point you're just arguing just to argue. You're expecting people who have a two hour timeslot to play together to jump through a million hoops to do a simple run on that specific night. We had our reasons for going the route we did. We accomplished what we set out to do and NONE of that discredits why dungeon gear should be tradable.

"And replying to a few of the things you said to Kaurhz…"
1. You misunderstand. My point is that they said we would have to have some level of investment to come back and play. But with an insanely vertical gearing system, and the combat being as easy as it is with no real variables for gearing, then why? Your rotation not changing is just another aspect of that, in that the reason isn't investment for skill reasons.
2.idk how you extrapolated my answer to this with the response you gave. If you can buy gear off the market board, you obviously don't care about the players time investment when they come back. So why gate keep LESSER dungeon gear. Simple.
3. You just gave a text book non answer to this. And that's my exact point. If we could trade dungeon gear to get the person over the hump, then who gives a damn. It would be so much easier to argue that you simply like the game the way it is and you want no changes to happen at all. I would even respect that opinion. Maybe this is the specific flavor combination you most enjoy. That's actually a solid answer lol.

I appreciate that last comment. It took us about 30 minutes to gear two different people to 725. It was long and hard work, but someone had to do it.

[Ephremjlm]

The Underkeep (ilvl 705) rewards ilvl 725 gear and four Tomestone items (each selling for 12k+). Just one day before the patch, the latest crafted gear pieces were selling for 50k to 100k, and we also have normal raids.

This isn't about empathy. Most people in this thread are just doing basic math and understand the obvious problems that trading dungeon gear would cause.

Anyone can gear up from 700 to 720 (latest dungeon requirement) in a single day. It's an objective fact, not up for debate. Some level of grind is expected, considering item level 700 was attainable about a year ago, or 365 days, when the expansion released. Even then, just a few runs of The Underkeep are enough, which is quite generous.

And if people somehow have no gil despite having nothing significant to spend on, while also deciding to gear up on patch week when prices increase, it's not SE's problem. The game still needs an economy, crafted gear progression, and dungeon content that lasts more than a single day.

I didn't respond to you the first time because it was clear you didn't read what I wrote, and it is also clear that you didn't read the parts where multiple other people explained why the gear was so expensive the day of the patch. You have no empathy, you're looking to dunk when you can only jump a few inches.

[brinn12]

I didn't respond to you the first time because it was clear you didn't read what I wrote, and it is also clear that you didn't read the parts where multiple other people explained why the gear was so expensive the day of the patch. You have no empathy, you're looking to dunk when you can only jump a few inches.

I wonder, why do you keep bringing the term "empathy" to this thread? You seem to repeat "you didn't read what I wrote" or "empathy" quite a lot. Your OP was suggesting for dungeon gear to be tradeable, and that the game isn't living up to its reputation of "friendly to returners". All I did was address those points. You might say you disagree, but to say that I didn't read what you wrote is completely false.

"and it is also clear that you didn't read the parts where multiple other people explained why the gear was so expensive the day of the patch" >>> Now it seems you didn't read what I wrote, which is pretty ironic, given the context. I've addressed this at the end of my post. It seems you've been doing the things you're accusing most people here to do quite often. Actually, maybe now I understand why you're so focused on those words.