Here we go again

[Valence]

You call it streamlining, I call it homogenizing.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

You call it streamlining, I call it homogenizing.

Same differences imho. Nevertheless once that's implemented, I'll miss exclamating "It's AV!!!" in VC with my friends because I'm sure they'll turn it into the same gray beige of their so-called 'awesome modern encounter design'.

[Absurdity]

Does anyone care about these 2 dungeons in the first place in 2025, tho? I've done it tons of times for mentor or high level rous and I'll heal everyone on auto-pilot too. If anything, I'm glad SE is streamlining old content for everyone who is going to be stuck by chance on ARR dungeons.

I care about those dungeons, not because they're super interesting to play through nowadays but because of what they represent.
Experimenting with mechanics and dungeon layouts, variety, a time when they were actually trying to make unique dungeons.

And I don't feel like applauding their "streamlining" when all it does is remove every single interesting mechanic from the old game to replace it with the same stale "dodge line AoEs, dodge dynamo, dodge chariot, dodge half-room cleave, dodge in clock positions".
Because that is all dungeons have been since the introduction of Trusts and their incredibly limited capabilities.

[HereticJay]

i try my best not to judge but this is a msq dungeon this is as easy as it can get you need to be level 100 to queue the game has been out for 10 years if you still cant do mechanics at this point i think its better to move on to some other game for your own sanity no point playing a game where you are not having fun

[BlisteringFrost]

I care about those dungeons, not because they're super interesting to play through nowadays but because of what they represent.
Experimenting with mechanics and dungeon layouts, variety, a time when they were actually trying to make unique dungeons.

And I don't feel like applauding their "streamlining" when all it does is remove every single interesting mechanic from the old game to replace it with the same stale "dodge line AoEs, dodge dynamo, dodge chariot, dodge half-room cleave, dodge in clock positions".
Because that is all dungeons have been since the introduction of Trusts and their incredibly limited capabilities.

Meso Terminal was the wake up call everybody needed.

[ovIm]

I care about those dungeons, not because they're super interesting to play through nowadays but because of what they represent.
Experimenting with mechanics and dungeon layouts, variety, a time when they were actually trying to make unique dungeons.

Unfortunately, the devs are showing that this kind of game is not what they are willing to do any more. Instead, we get trash removed from raid instances, and trial fights pushed onto us at every corner. In typical CS3 fashion, things that don't work perfectly are not iterated, and then slowly removed from the game.

And I don't feel like applauding their "streamlining" when all it does is remove every single interesting mechanic from the old game to replace it with the same stale "dodge line AoEs, dodge dynamo, dodge chariot, dodge half-room cleave, dodge in clock positions".
Because that is all dungeons have been since the introduction of Trusts and their incredibly limited capabilities.

Not to mention that there seems to be an increasing amount of people that are just not good at these kinds of challenges, as indicated by some forum posts. Instead of providing a variance of different challenges in a fight, everything is condensed down to full rote memorization for AoE's, to the point that things like the add phase of M6S are an obvious outlier that has caused some players to be caught off guard, since that cannot be fully pre planned.

Its moments like these were i look fondly at Hullbreaker Isle NM, which had interesting things going on with trash and bosses all around. in general, so many ARR dungeons may not have been perfect, but they are a showcase of what the game was and also could have become.

[Xieldras]

Not to mention that there seems to be an increasing amount of people that are just not good at these kinds of challenges, as indicated by some forum posts. Instead of providing a variance of different challenges in a fight, everything is condensed down to full rote memorization for AoE's, to the point that things like the add phase of M6S are an obvious outlier that has caused some players to be caught off guard, since that cannot be fully pre planned.

Its moments like these were i look fondly at Hullbreaker Isle NM, which had interesting things going on with trash and bosses all around. in general, so many ARR dungeons may not have been perfect, but they are a showcase of what the game was and also could have become.

According to some, we're just shitty players that should leave the game if we can't get through this "easy" content. Many have. We've got many threads about the reasons why said newer content is more difficult, and keep getting hit by the ol' "you're just bad at the game, git gud", or getting blamed for the shedding of job complexity. Some have recommended perseverance, which is fine, but all it does is help sour the entire dungeon experience if said experience is spent kissing the floor.

As for dungeons, my favorite from ARR is definitely Haukke Manor. The ambiance, the music, the (rather slim) lore, and also the alternative routes that can give you crafting materials used in furnishings. Though I understand that alternative routes are not popular with most players as they just want to get it over with, I do enjoy the unique goodies that can be applied in another form of content.

Also, we feel like adventurers. Many of the newer dungeons are so interconnected with MSQ in my opinion, and have to happen in the new zones. Give us a new dungeon in Kugane, or the Black Shroud. You've got an entire world to use!

[BlisteringFrost]

According to some, we're just shitty players that should leave the game if we can't get through this "easy" content. Many have. We've got many threads about the reasons why said newer content is more difficult, and keep getting hit by the ol' "you're just bad at the game, git gud", or getting blamed for the shedding of job complexity. Some have recommended perseverance, which is fine, but all it does is help sour the entire dungeon experience if said experience is spent kissing the floor.

As for dungeons, my favorite from ARR is definitely Haukke Manor. The ambiance, the music, the (rather slim) lore, and also the alternative routes that can give you crafting materials used in furnishings. Though I understand that alternative routes are not popular with most players as they just want to get it over with, I do enjoy the unique goodies that can be applied in another form of content.

Also, we feel like adventurers. Many of the newer dungeons are so interconnected with MSQ in my opinion, and have to happen in the new zones. Give us a new dungeon in Kugane, or the Black Shroud. You've got an entire world to use!

You're also level 100. Not 35. This was even a massive plot point when we fought Midgardsormr's spirit. "Don't rely on the Echo, it'll make you bad."

Time to start acting like it.

[AmiableApkallu]

You're also level 100. Not 35. This was even a massive plot point when we fought Midgardsormr's spirit. "Don't rely on the Echo, it'll make you bad."

Time to start acting like it.

There might be a point here if level 100 content required people to be better at tanking, or better at healing, or better a DPSing. It doesn't.

It requires people to be faster and more precise at not standing in the bad, something that has nothing to do with 100 levels spent "mastering" one's job.

Case in point: We hear the same complaints about the reworked Aetherochemical Research Facility.

[BlisteringFrost]

There might be a point here if level 100 content required people to be better at tanking, or better at healing, or better a DPSing. It doesn't.

It requires people to be faster and more precise at not standing in the bad, something that has nothing to do with 100 levels spent "mastering" one's job.

Case in point: We hear the same complaints about the reworked Aetherochemical Research Facility.

Aetherochemical Research Facility? The dungeon that came after your encounter with Midgardsormr? Where he himself -- and by transitive property, the game itself -- was telling you "it's time to git gud Warrior of Light"?

So when IS it appropriate to take the training wheels off, then? Because Midgardsormr temporarily disabled the Echo from us so we didn't have the foresight it gave us. That's the in-canon thing that gives us telegraphs.
My comment had nothing to do with job mastery. It's telling you if there's a giant iron ball above your head you shouldn't need a rocket scientist to tell you "you probably should not stand underneath that". Or if an enemy has a glowing / flashing cast bar and it's a slow cast you should probably interrupt it.

Or if you see a debuff with the white line above it you should probably esuna it.

This is incredibly basic stuff. There's no excuse for letting it kill you upwards of 10+ times in a row when you're level 100 and would have seen all of this a multitude of times before. Once or twice? Sure, it still gets me sometimes too. Especially when I'm not paying attention. "They could have level skipped" is not a valid excuse when the skip only puts you 10 levels below current cap, so you would have had to have seen these mechanics before you got to Lv100 anyway. Meso Terminal is the time to wake up slap a lot of people needed. Even if they did not want it. Even in Meso Terminal, the dungeon that's causing such a stir, you have upwards of 5+ seconds to resolve any mechanic in the entire dungeon. That's consistent with the entire game.