What kinds of "active" mitigation would you like to see among tanks?

[Shurrikhan]

As per title:

What kinds of "active" mitigation would you like to see among tanks?

What other kinds of agency, if any, would you like such controls to interact with or compete against in how tanks vary their capacities across a roster?

[Carighan]

It depends on the job, and IMO it also depends on how willing Squeenix is to differentiate - and therefor automatically unbalance, as balanced divergent jobs are utopian and no MMO has ever managed, but they're cool - the current tank jobs:

* Paladin: Raise Shield replaces Shield Bash. While the GCD cycles, you'll block the next single physical hit you take and block amount if doubled. If blocked, you gain 1 charge of "Retaliate" which lasts 3 seconds only and can be used to cast Holy Spirit or Holy Circle as an instant oGCD or to use an Intervene without a charge, causing stun to the main target and a low-damage cone with +emnity behind the main target. Shield Bash itself is removed.
* Dark Knight: I'd remove potency from multiple moves, most importantly our spenders. TBN loses mana cost, shield and most of its CD. TBN can absord a single instance of magic damage, fully. The absorbed potency is stored, and the next Quietus will apply a DoT that deals damage and heals us over time with each tick based on the damage avoided, but the DoT is sloooow (30s++) to not overly spike our damage. Yes I know this massively unbalances, see my point above, I'm not looking for balance here, just "feeling cool". Feeling like the big anti-magic tank in this case, while Paladin is the big anti-physical tank. Tankbusters of course would need a way to pierce this, I suppose.
* Gunbreaker: After some trigger, a marker is left where you are for 2-3 GCDs. All rotational moves get 25y range temporarily, and if you walk away from the marker, you will no longer be hit by directed attacks (not sure how to handle tankbusters here, either). You attack from range briefly while the enemy cannot move and behaves as if you stand where the marker is, while you auto-evade anything you're not in range for. However, this only works while for each GCD you do shoot from range and got a cartridge for it. You're essentially going ranged mode for up to 3 GCDs.
* Warrior: I got no clue. I wish I could remodel it all to stack shields instead of healing itself because I feel it fits the shrug-it-off fantasy better, but I don't play Warrior enough to have any real idea for mitigation here. I'd love to make the damage output retaliatory as I feel that'd fit the class fantasy, but that's where my ideas stop.

[AlienDiplomat]

I just want all tank jobs to have a comparable level of self sustain and DPS. I like diversity, but most important is for all tank role jobs to feel the same level of control over encounters.

Right now the gap isn't even close. WAR completely blows everything else out of the water in terms of self sustain, encounter control, and efficiency. It can fill its own health bar multiple times over WHILE doing good AOE damage. Nothing else even comes remotely close and has to struggle with more buttons and resource management just to do a fraction as well. These roles are tanks FIRST not "DPS that can take some damage" which seems what too many are content to think of them as. We have enough DPS jobs already. How about the few actual tank jobs are balanced to be actual TANKS?

The suggestions for TBN posted above are HORRIBLE, no offense. There is hardly any magic damage in this game as it is, and this actively makes the worst thing about tank balance even worse.

TBN is supposed to be the DRK equivalent of WAR Blood Whetting and it is an absolute joke. 25% health shield once every 30sec and it competes with your damage resource? Meanwhile WAR gets Blood Whetting on that same cooldown, it costs NO resources, and heals their entire health bar maybe 10x times or more WHILE they do damage? This is OK to people? Really?!?

TBN should lower its cooldown and refund MP if it breaks, and Abyssal Drain should be on a 30sec CD. Beyond that the devs need to seriously rethink their commitment to this role.

[Sunbird_Elf]

TBN is supposed to be the DRK equivalent of WAR Blood Whetting and it is an absolute joke. 25% health shield once every 30sec and it competes with your damage resource? Meanwhile WAR gets Blood Whetting on that same cooldown, it costs NO resources, and heals their entire health bar maybe 10x times or more WHILE they do damage? This is OK to people? Really?!?

TBN should lower its cooldown and refund MP if it breaks, and Abyssal Drain should be on a 30sec CD. Beyond that the devs need to seriously rethink their commitment to this role.

Idk what Dark Knight you're playing but TBN is already a 15 second cooldown and it does not compete with the damage resource. If you use it correctly, it breaks and you get a free use of Edge/Flood of Shadow. If you use TBN without it breaking, that is a miscalculation on the player's part and also part of DRKs gameplay to use TBN correctly. But it could for example get a heal/regen after it breaks (or maybe if it doesnt, it heals instead vs mitigating incoming damage), to compete with the other tanks healing abilities. That would especially be helpful for healing team members, because DRK has no way to do that as of now. Abyssal Drain on 30 seconds would also bring it closer to Bloodwhetting levels of heal output


What I do like as "active" mitigation is something like Paladins Passage of Arms, because you have to kinda "aim" it at your teammates. Other mitigations are either directly targeted or just hit everyone in range. Maybe something like Healers Asylum, Sacred Soil or Earthly Star to place across the arena, too, for DR mitigation? Especially comparing with Earthly Star, if you could choose when to apply the healing/mitigation of a skill instead of waiting for it to either hit a threshold of HP or when the CD runs out like Heart of Corundum does.

As it is now, I definitely want all tanks to stay viable in similar ways, and not have any of them get turned into a joke for the sake of some gimmick that either has no real use or only fringe cases (that also have to be solvable by other tanks in case you dont have that *one* tank on hand, or would force people to bring that job to the encounter no matter what). Same as putting mitigation on GCDs, I would prefer if they all stayed mostly oGCDs as they are now. Stuff like Clemency is fine as a GCD I guess, but only because it's also kinda ridiculously strong as it is, and on demand as long as you have the MP.

[AlienDiplomat]

If you use TBN without it breaking, that is a miscalculation on the player's part and also part of DRKs gameplay to use TBN correctly.

I don't know how you are totally missing the utter lack of even remotely comperable balance here for the sake of nit picking some CD times but let me break it down further.

WAR Bloodwhetting - 25s CD. 400 potency heal per target hit by any attack. Lets just say there are 5 targets in a small AOE pull not wall to wall. That is a 2000 potency heal per AOE cast for 8 sec. Say you somehow only managed to get off two AOE attacks, which is really, REALLY bad since they have a 2.5s gcd on average and you also have ogcd like Orogeny that can be woven in between casts which will also proc the heal, but just to keep things conservative and simple. That would still be 4000 potency healing every 25s. That is easilly more than a full healthbar of healing (more counting crits). On top of that you get 10% damage reduction (20% for the first 4sec), AND a 400 potency barrier.

DRK The Blackest Night - TBN costs 3000 MP. Even with a 15s CD, you have to actively plan your DPS to balance keeping up Darkside with having at least one charge of TBN available for when it comes up. WAR doesn't need to think about anything.

The ONLY thing TBN does is give you a 25% health barrier. No damage reduction. No healing. NOTHING. IF it breaks (and on 5 targets it frequently won't no matter how much you "calculate"), you get a free cast of your 3000 MP damage skill. Otherwise you are out the MP for a wimpy little 25% shield with no mitigation and no healing.

WAR - Heals full health multiple times, gets active damage reduction, AND a barrier, with NO planning and no resource management. Doesn't rely on timing healer stuns through chat communicating with randos with our 2nd set of hands. Actively contributes to DPS WHILE healing increasing the efficiency of the entire run.

DRK - Gets a wimpy 25% health shield and NOTHING else AND it costs MP. Healers hate you.

Yeah. This is fine. Totally wonderful game design and balance. Let's keep defending it.

I mean objectively that is like comparing apples and orangutangs! The two signature job abilities are not even remotely in the same league! This is OK?

Honestly this game has over a dozen DPS jobs, but only one serious tank (WAR), one mid tank (PLD) and a couple lower DPS jobs that can use tank role mitigation and have some gimicky job mechanics that are inferior to WAR in every way.

[Sunbird_Elf]

I don't know how you are totally missing the utter lack of even remotely comperable balance here for the sake of nit picking some CD times but let me break it down further.

I don't know how you are totally missing the point that was me just correcting factually wrong information you gave about how TBN operates. I didn't say anything about whether people can consider the skill good or bad. I am obviously aware that DRK lacks healing other tanks have, hence my further ideas adding more healing output to DRK. But I guess you didn't read that.

Maybe you'll read this other idea related to the threads topic then: Make TBN cost 2k MP, so a successful TBN proc also rewards good active mitigation play with a (slight) DPS increase. Give it a shield (+ Regen) spread similar to PCT Tempera spread for group mitigation vs single target mitigation. Give Oblation a heal, too, if you want, or rather make a heal version share a cooldown with Oblation so you can actively choose whether you need to mit or heal.

and you also have ogcd like Orogeny that can be woven in between casts which will also proc the heal

Also wrong, it only heals from weaponskills :P

[bundythenoob]

I can only speak for DRK/PLD, but the thing I like about TBN the most is the risk-reward factor. I quite like learning curve of minmaxing its usage, the flexibility it offers with its short cooldown, and the MP cost being one of the only holdovers from the HW job design is a great thing, so I would HATE to see it go the way of BW/HoS.

PLD has the same decision making factor, albeit without the inherit "DPS loss potential", but I think the design of its defencive mits are in a decent spot. I'd argue the only thing PLD needs is a duration buff/cost reduction on basic Sheltron, and Cover NEEDS to return to its 3.0 ver. Holy Sheltron is nice and having its cost reduced to 30 might make it too strong, but if the devs intend on making content deal more damage, then we might need this to compensate.

I would like to see Oblation changed so it is a true alternative to TBN that gives a 15% shield with a Sole Survivor type delayed heal that refunds mana if it pops, but PLEASE let us get it at an earlier level so that we can a semblance of decision making and party mitigation before lv 70, since they seem to be allergic to giving us an early TBN .

I think DRK/PLD having 2 decent active mits and letting GNB/WAR have one strong active mit is a nice way to differentiate their kits, but as it stands, Oblyat is utter dogwater in comparison to Intervention and feels super clunky to use, let alone waste time casting it on other teammates. It's hard to brainstorm different forms of active mitigation without knowing that the devs will choose to do with the combat and jobs come 8.0, but all I can say for certain is that the current TBN feels good to use and I would like it if tank gameplay expanded on that risk-reward factor that makes TBN so fun to use

[Shurrikhan]

Just some brief and neutral comments so far:

If something costs a resource but typically (and with any proper usage) refunds its full cost, it's less that the skill itself has a "cost" than that failure has a cost, while the skill itself can allow for indirect resource banking.

Additionally, capped mitigation (such as TBN's) means that you're much freer to pre-pop it than the other short-CDs. Granted, the risk of failing its damage-intake check makes that will often make that seem too risky to fully leverage, yes.
___________________________________

It's also been interesting to see what all is considered "active" mitigation here.

To me, active mitigation can mean either of two things: (1) any mitigation that is not passive (as per Defense or Tank Mastery, or arguably what comes in the course of just doing your rotation if the mitigation component of that rotation is not particularly bankable/delayable/rushable to any significant effect) or (2) any mitigation you have to actively work towards beyond just the press of an isolated button (typically, without also falling into the more specific categories of CC or kiting).

As such, Bloodspiller giving healing for a portion of damage dealt and Quietus healing you and restoring some further MP for each enemy that dies within 5s of its hit would be relatively "active", while Souleater (which cannot be deliberately banked to any significant effect) would not be. The first 4s of Heart of Corundum would be, while its triggerable additional heal would not be (at least without a context that would allow you to deliberately amplify it and trigger it at a specific time to be uniquely amplified through some other active measure, since as long as you're playing around it specifically for the added sustain at X moment, that still seems active to me).

Does that way of looking at it seem sensible to anyone? If so, my apologies for leaving things vague at the start. If not, well, define the term as you will and suggest accordingly.

[Oizen]

WAR - Heals full health multiple times, gets active damage reduction, AND a barrier, with NO planning and no resource management. Doesn't rely on timing healer stuns through chat communicating with randos with our 2nd set of hands. Actively contributes to DPS WHILE healing increasing the efficiency of the entire run.
DRK - Gets a wimpy 25% health shield and NOTHING else AND it costs MP. Healers hate you.

Yeah. This is fine. Totally wonderful game design and balance. Let's keep defending it.

I don't think dungeon gameplay is really a great metric to go off of. Experienced Dark Knight players barely take damage in there now, especially with the 7.2 changes that gave Dark Knight a 4th 10% physical mit and a pocket benediction every 60s.
If you step outside of ultra casual content, you quickly come to the realization that defensively Dark Knight absolutely clowns on Warrior in almost every fight.


On a 5 point scale, Warrior's healing is an 11. Dark Knight's is like a 3. But there are two realities that you become aware of in higher end content.

1.Is of the 3 types of Mitigation (% Reduction, Shields, Regen) , Health Regen is by FAR the worst one. Dark Knight being weaker than the other tanks barely matters here, Healers can more than make up for Dark Knight's short comings in health regen.
In contrast its a lot harder for healers to make up for a tank lacking % Reduction.

2. WAR's % Reduction game is really bad. It has the standard tools (20%, 40%, Short Mit), and Thrill which is basically a big shield on a 90s CD
DRK has: 20%, 40%, 10% x 2, 10-20% depending on Damage type, and TBN, which is basically a big shield on a 15s CD.

DRK's nonstandard mits are all on shorter cooldowns. In the time you can Bloodwhetting once, you can TBN Twice, and pair it with your other % mits (Dark Mind and Oblation being 60s CD instead of 90) and you quickly realize Dark Knight just takes a lot less damage than WAR. I get it, Dark Knights buttons do not READ crazy like the other tank's mits. But these skills do not exist in isolation and time has shown them to be more than the sum of their parts. Dark Knight is just way more defensively solid and way more flexible thanks to this, meanwhile WAR has to play with its %mits way closer to its chest.

Sure, WAR can heal it back thats its gameplan, but at the end of the day your health bar can only be so full, and high end content is very good at running tank mits thin. WAR will bump its head on this ceiling and feel awful, I think M6S was a great example of this, where even if you make a Savage with 4+ Targets for the WAR to leech life off of, as soon as Bloodwhetting falls off you just melt. Despite the insane healing WAR wasn't the optimal pick in the area its supposed to excel in, and honestly didn't get broken there until enough gear was handed around to make up for its lack of % mit. And despite all of that its still the least represented tank in that fight

while DRK not having as free healing in dungeons is just a skill check.

[Carighan]

TBN should lower its cooldown and refund MP if it breaks

You must be joking, right? You realize TBN does have half the cooldown you think it does and gives a free attack afterwards to "refund" its mana cost.