Community supports imbalance/bad game design?

[Oizen]

If you go look at any high end raiding statistics you see that Dark Knight is the most represented tank in high end content.

Being mad at WAR for being op in dungeons is like being mad at MCH for being the best DD solo job. Its not really something worth balancing around.

[Valence]

Being mad at WAR for being op in dungeons is like being mad at MCH for being the best DD solo job. Its not really something worth balancing around.

I'd argue that in the case of WAR, the balancing is screwed enough that it starts encroaching on the enjoyment of everybody else in the party. Other tanks too, mind you, but WAR has been the prime example of this through all types of contents but the content that SE balances around (trial bosses).

[Rithy255]

I'd argue that in the case of WAR, the balancing is screwed enough that it starts encroaching on the enjoyment of everybody else in the party. Other tanks too, mind you, but WAR has been the prime example of this through all types of contents but the content that SE balances around (trial bosses).

I think other tanks you can at least argue if they had proper damage scaling and stronger hits to tank the kits themselves wouldn't be a issue, with Warrior it's self healing in AOE situations is so broken that you cannot scale the damage high enough for warrior to even care.

I think this is mostly a gear issue because the item level to these duties are very poorly synched, pull limits ect. Theirs a lot more then just "funny tank self heal op" that plays a part into why tanks feel so strong, Warrior is a exception to this at least in AOE situations.

[Oizen]

I'd argue that in the case of WAR, the balancing is screwed enough that it starts encroaching on the enjoyment of everybody else in the party. Other tanks too, mind you, but WAR has been the prime example of this through all types of contents but the content that SE balances around (trial bosses).

I blame the design of dungeons more than anything else.

[Carighan]

I think other tanks you can at least argue if they had proper damage scaling and stronger hits to tank the kits themselves wouldn't be a issue, with Warrior it's self healing in AOE situations is so broken that you cannot scale the damage high enough for warrior to even care.

This is more of a problem of dungeon design though, being always:

1 pack of 3-5 mobs
1 pack of 3-5 mobs (which can be pulled on top of the above
1 boss

If it could also be any of:

* 1 single mini-boss replacing a pack. (this alone already rebalanced warrior, this single thing!)
* Just a single pack of two enemies, but each one you kill gets replaced, this lasts for 10 enemies total.
* A gauntlet where enemies never stop spawning and in fact become stronger until you reach the next boss room.
* Mixed packs where some enemies cannot be tanked, or one big enemy that needs to be tanked + 2-3 small ones that cannot.
* etc

This'd automatically make Warrior's selfhealing less auto-default-the-best. It's all just about the dungeon design, not the ability differentiation (if anything FFXIV has WAY too little differences of meaningful impact between jobs of a role, we really don't need more homogenization).

[Valence]

And what do you do in the remaining situations where AoE is still there? Unless you want to remove all AoE from dungeons?

Just fix the problem at the source, which is WAR. I have nothing against a self heal that scales through the amount of enemies hit, but at least bring it back to what it used to be: based on damage dealt, where you'd end up one times out of two using it on AoE filler with very diminished returns. Hell, even pvp Bloodwhetting is based on damage dealt..

Even HW DA Abyssal DRK that self healed way more than HW bloodbath WAR was still limited in use by its MP pool...

[Rithy255]

This is more of a problem of dungeon design though, being always:

1 pack of 3-5 mobs
1 pack of 3-5 mobs (which can be pulled on top of the above
1 boss

If it could also be any of:

* 1 single mini-boss replacing a pack. (this alone already rebalanced warrior, this single thing!)
* Just a single pack of two enemies, but each one you kill gets replaced, this lasts for 10 enemies total.
* A gauntlet where enemies never stop spawning and in fact become stronger until you reach the next boss room.
* Mixed packs where some enemies cannot be tanked, or one big enemy that needs to be tanked + 2-3 small ones that cannot.
* etc

This'd automatically make Warrior's selfhealing less auto-default-the-best. It's all just about the dungeon design, not the ability differentiation (if anything FFXIV has WAY too little differences of meaningful impact between jobs of a role, we really don't need more homogenization).

While you do have some good points, theirs still going to ideally be AOE situations and expansions full of old dungeons (they aren't gonna go back and rework them all)

Realistically SE show no interest in making dungeons that much different (nor do i think they care about healer and tank dynamics in those dungeons though alas im crying about it), but the fact is Warrior scales too well In AOE situations, I think it being based off damage at least would be more fair but even then I could see it still be too good.

A last thing is you pointed out FFXIV has way too little differences of meaningful impact and while I agree we "don't need more homogenization" I think there can be some expectations such as Warriors self healing in aoe taking away gameplay from healers where that sort of homogenization does more good then harm and Its not like they can make actual meaningful tank differences and changes though I doubt that they will.

I'd also argue Warrior in general needs other big changes to it, other tanks included so making BW not be this OP skill in AOE situations would only be one change of many I'd make to tanks.

[Carighan]

A last thing is you pointed out FFXIV has way too little differences of meaningful impact and while I agree we "don't need more homogenization" I think there can be some expectations such as Warriors self healing in aoe taking away gameplay from healers where that sort of homogenization does more good then harm and Its not like they can make actual meaningful tank differences and changes though I doubt that they will.

Sure but like... it shouldn't be able to. Warrior self-healing only lasts like what? 3 GCDs on a 25s CD? If damage intake to us tanks were even remotely comparable to other games, this would not cover us, remotely. We'd have our strong point in these AoE situations, but that'd be about it, and it'd be momentary, one re-upping but still needing constant healing GCDs in-between.

Remember in older MMOs we even had complete heal rotations. Because complete heal in EQ1 casted too slowly, so to keep a tank alive multiple clerics were stagger-casting complete heals constantly so they arrive every 2-3 seconds on the tank.

[Rithy255]

Snip

as 25cd that lasts 8s 3-4Gcds depending on timing (so 17s down time without it), is up so frequently that it would be very hard to balance the infinite healing scaling of BW and its short timer, We aren't talking about a cooldown that is on a much longer cooldown... If lets say Damnation had bloodwhettings on hit enemy heal effect instead of BW then it would be fine with me, the problem is that Blood whetting Is up so frequently. Other short cooldowns have strong heal effects but don't fully restore you for its duration.

You also got to think this is in combination with Warriors other absurd healing skills, Shake it off, equilibrium, Thrill, damnation even has it's own heal effect, It's also got a very short cooldown that has no real downside if used with BW timings correctly (vs something like paladins which has a 7ms cooldown). If you made the damage in AOE situations actually high enough where healers would have to pay some attention to a Warrior then other tanks would feel incredibly bad in AOE despite their own mitigation and healing effects, Due to warriors sheer volume of self healing.

I don't really know why your so insistent that warrior Should be able to heal so much in AOE, other then the fact it's "unique to warrior?" It's only really unique in the fact that it uniquely makes warrior feel bad to heal (or play for me because i don't like how it feels in aoe personally), I want actual uniqueness I think rotations are a good start for that but tanks offering different utility and strengths can be nice when balanced well and fair, for example I'd like warrior to have larger max HP and be slightly less about mitigation then the other tanks, I'd love Paladin to have even more stronger party protection and utility, Dark knight to go more onto the magic shields and life steal aspects, GNB being a jack of all trades ect. But I don't think we need to defend bad design for the sake of it being unique in the case of BW In Aoe.

I also don't think ff14 Healers should follow strict healing rotations in dungeons or anything, I want healers to use GCD heals sometimes, but mix in damage and have damaging procs, the key way of seeing this as a reality is too cutdown on tank mitigation and some healing cases, while also removing some of the Healer bloat and in general making gear not super scale peoples mitigative and hp value too much. I haven't played old MMOs so I can't comment too much on it.

The fact is infinite amount of self healing in AOE shouldn't really be on a 25s cooldown (which again is 17s of downtime). Is my core issue with the skill, while it only effects dungeons I think it's still important that healers have things to do.

[Carighan]

Because that should be "it's thing". For RPG classes, very strong individual upsides are important. It's what gives character to these classes.

So maybe in AoE trash situations Warriors will reign supreme, by a mile. Instead of nerfing that, and hence making everything homogenous as all that changes is the color painted over the generic class underpinnings that are identical, add equivalently strong upsides to the other tanks. Rotations in fact cannot be this unique thing. They are internal. To an outsider, you're just tanking, taking X damage while dealing Y. The healer healing you could not possibly care any less whether you press 1-2-3-4-5-6 instead of 1-2, 1-2, 1-2.

What matters is whether say, one tank has to first take the damage then rapidly re-heals it (worse against single big hits, better against steady incoming low damage). Whether one can attack fully from range keeping 100% uptime when disenganging for mechanics. Whether one can frequently become briefly invulnerable, ignoring entire mechanics whole. Whether one scales with the damage it takes. Whether one is built around finishers, inherently being better attacks adds that die quickly instead of large bosses, etc etc.

These are things that feel unique on the outside. And yes, this is unbalanced. You cannot balance that. There is no way to do so. The point is to provide a game environment in which each upside can shine often enough so hand-picking your tank for each situation isn't feasible, they're too mixed and varied to do that, even inside say, a single dungeon.
I'm sorry, but the "samey" way jobs are designed in FFXIV is just such a waste. The four tanks are already nearly identical. Their kit has tons of equivalences, and that's just boring. They ought to be entirely different, and yes, that means one will be better at a particular situation. But in return, swapping your tank job feels like an actual change, not just putting a different set of shades on. And right now just about the only real difference that feels different is how Warrior can go ham in dungeons with their healing. Now dungeons shouldn't all be built to promote this (which they are), but the actual mechanism of being supremely good against groups as you can heal yourself on them isn't a bad thing, that's a cool niche! Groups just need to be less common, and enough situations need to be mixed in where whatever unique aspects the other tanks can get in turn can shine!
Of course, I should also add that this does not automatically mean current Warrior healing that isn't damage-based does not need a nerf, but by that I mean a potency/number one. I don't feel it needs a mechanical change, at least not on a basic level. Change the CD, change the numbers, etc. Maybe even go as far as scaling it entirely off of something else, number of hits suffered or so.

(And ignoring that the healer problem cannot be fixed by nerfing Warriors, that problem is absolutely universal and not related to dungeon trash packs, it's a result of the game's unwillingness to deal enough damage to the tank or the group to force the use of actual healing GCDs, nevermind in the majority of GCDs, as in, requiring healing spam)