Thread: Premades Don’t Break Frontline — They Broke the Illusion of the Horde Stampede

Originally Posted by Atreus

Just saying, 2.0 Secure when there were 8-mans from all three GCs running around seeking each other out was the best that Frontlines ever was, and will ever be again.

If it was any good, one wonders why it was scrapped?

That said, I think a 24v24v24 in which the three alliances in each team had a commander would be a fascinating mode. It's one reason I'd like to see custom FL matches. But 8-person premades with the current rules and player base would just take seal clubbing to another level. Fun for the few, miserable for the many.

Originally Posted by Atreus

Easy. It wasn't "scrapped". Changes were made meant to accommodate all further modes they added that negatively impacted Secure, such as the following:
*Adding battle high
*Awarding points for kills instead of holding capture zones and breaking nodes
*Increasing mount speed
*Adding the middle ramp to each base
*Adding forced freelance to everyone
*Reducing premade maximums

Because SE wanted to innovate, try new things, and make changes under the notion of "increasing accessibility" and all they've done is lure more people who don't wanna be there in the first place.

Let's not sit here and dote on SE like their decision-making is always for the better.

Very fair point.

I guess the issue then is what worked for Secure 2.0 would not work on the other maps?

I have to say in any given match these days, I get far more irritated by people hiding behind rocks than I do by a light party leading the charge.

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The title of this thread is pure fiction. The premades on NA with the highest win-rates employ a well-known guide, a central feature of which is a marker that everyone is instructed to follow. In that sense, premades are the source of the horde stampede.

On that note, I think it's both and it's probably an ouroboros of some kind. Before EW/DT AoE stacking appeared, whether or not premades were there, we still had hordes like that. It's in human nature to gang up and follow, especially the ones that seem to know what they're doing. Apes strong together and all that jazz. And it's also effective because that's what shows the best results as long as the mode doesn't clearly requires splitting, which it doesn't. As others pointed out, the horde blobbing mentality appeared once enough changes were made to the mode past ARR/HW that made splitting less and less mandatory.

Maps required splitting a lot more for different reasons, for instance Secure because there was no teleporters and mount speed meant you committed to a side and that was it (often at the cost of finding actual action which is still a problem today but less so, due to the teleporters and mount speed). Seize was the least affected, but mount speed still made that it was possible to skirmish and steal nodes without immediately facing the wrath of the enemy blob because it took more time to come back. Shatter 1.0 very often had small rng ice everywhere that forced people to spread, and I do believe that it's still one of the best FL mechanics to date that splits alliances even though it's pve (and i hate pve in pvp) for the simple reason that it allows for a LOT of smaller skirmishes where deleting the other small teams makes a lot of sense. Being post mount speed change, Onsal has always been designed for mindless blobbing and hordes because everything is immediately accessible even though multiple objectives can pop at once, and alliance just have to move from one to another in quick succession.

Originally Posted by Exmo

The thing is, it's not a case of 4 players defeating 24 players. Premades corral and pester the other 20 players on their team to obey the premade's designated strategy and follow the premade's chosen leader. With 20 allies backing them up, the 4 highly coordinated players can ensure they're always in the most advantageous position of their team, use their allies to pad their kills and assists, and leverage their allies as human shields before they sound the macro to retreat to guarantee they're always ahead of the crowd and with low risk of dying. These aren't "highly skilled" players in premades. Once you strip away the advantages of being in a discord call with 4 friends and having 20 bodyguards on the field, they're shown to be just above average.

Can confirm that a lot of premade players are actually mediocre at actual pvp mechanics, but on the other hand, I think it's pretty unfair to judge them with CC's standards, as this is FL after all. They're usually pretty competent to a fault at playing large scale pvp movements, which is also what the mode is about.

Originally Posted by Atreus

Easy. It wasn't "scrapped". Changes were made meant to accommodate all further modes they added that negatively impacted Secure, such as the following:
*Adding battle high
*Awarding points for kills instead of holding capture zones and breaking nodes
*Increasing mount speed
*Adding the middle ramp to each base
*Adding forced freelance to everyone
*Reducing premade maximums

Because SE wanted to innovate, try new things, and make changes under the notion of "increasing accessibility" and all they've done is lure more people who don't wanna be there in the first place.

Let's not sit here and dote on SE like their decision-making is always for the better.

I agree with most points, but on the freelance and premade points, that's something as someone that has personally faced 8 man premades and Maelstrom with good players vs everyone else, it was absolutely awful, and made the mode so bad that people complaining about premades today feel like small fry in comparison. Like, if people think premades are bad today, they obviously haven't seen what they used to be in their glory days, even without all the tools they have today to stack AoE. They just didn't need them when they could stack all the odds in their favor and rig the game from the start. I still have nightmares about 8 NIN premades from Stormblood for example. Only in HW/SB I have actually witnessed FL games where two teams would just stay in their spawn and refuse to even play the game when faced with a full BH5 premade like that. And before freelancing it was even more hilarious since you could also stack premades in the same team a lot more easily than today.

I'd agree that the old premade and predetermined GC queue system worked probably damn well for games dedicated to FL aficionados though, but it works very poorly for a more universal, accessible queue system for everybody including casuals.

This is a problem on all DCs.
I do agree that premades aren't the problem, the problem is what enables the gameplay to turn into what coordinated groups require and it's found at the design level.

Using derogatory statements about people being too lazy or "unwilling to put too much effort" isn't gonna help either, because you perfectly know that's not how the casual masses work in any game whatsoever. Else it's like asking casuals to follow savage strats for a fight and study them by watching 30min guides even though they won't have the actual skills to execute them anyway.

And I'm fine with the fact that putting more effort and skill into something should be actually rewarded. I think the problem is mostly a problem of scale, where the gap is already pretty huge between a good veteran FL player and the average casual player, that if you start adding all those design issues that can be exploited to generate absolute steam rolls and seal clubbing that yes, it's out of hands.