Job Complexity and Difficulty

[Aco505]

Hot take, but...
Very little changed in the depth of the job; virtually only the skill floor was affected. Current DRG is effectively just EW DRG but with full Eyes upon entering combat and your Gier/Nost damage dealt over 2 casts per minute instead of 5. Though more punishing for not using your CDs more or less on-CD, it didn't actually offer any additional agency from that. You use High Jump as before. You use Mirage Dive as before. You use Geirskogul as before. Because there wasn't actual choice to be made between generating Eyes and dealing more immediate damage or anything else.

The ceiling was affected too, especially on Ultimates although not exclusively. You cannot choose to do a double or early LotD if you need to due to the fight's timeline or the target dying soon. High Jump and Mirage Dive are not used like before, since they're just damage now and not gauge generators. This also has the effect of making the full kit feel disconnected since actions only deal damage and have no link between each other.

The current iteration is actually less punishing since you can delay your damage oGCDs as much as you can as long as they're still inside your buffs, which you can also delay and be alright unless the kill time severely cuts the burst window, and your burst is always given; there's no preparation or gauge stacking required besides WWT. This also has the effect of making deaths way less punishing than before.

Whatever optimization and ceiling left for the job is minimal (mostly reduced to MD/ePT and to a lesser extent WWT and LS) if we compare it to EW.

[Pip_Chick]

We need the jobs to be easy to start, but difficult to master. The jobs have to be fun and bring something to the table, regardless of the level of difficulty the content has. So, not just Ultimates are allowed to be "Fun".
We need the Trinity to be resurrected. Tanks need to tank, Healers need to heal, and DPS need to DPS. The game needs to be more than an easy-to-plan Dance Dance Revolution-type of content.
We need more interesting ways we approach content. Like Blue Mage, Summoner and Dark Knight were in FFXI, where you needed to go out into the world and interact with other aspects of the game. Granted, they don't need to be as annoying as killing 100 mobs with a, what was it, level 1 sword? But something like BLU getting their spells from overworld mobs, then going into dungeons and having fun with content.
We need more RPG elements to interact with the world.
For example, the overworld mobs are cool, but what if you could just go to a map, and during a full moon, you could fall into a solo dungeon? This could incentivise exploration. What if certain Jobs could find these dungeons easier? Something like the zone itself would be easier to navigate and find these secrets if you are a particular Job. Like in Garlemald, an RPR would have a better time exploring, while in Doma, a NIN would have the advantage.
What if doing certain EX trials would give SMNs a catalogue of Eikons to choose from, having them be reskins of the usual 3, but with different-looking spells (even if they function the same)? Like, imagine instead of Garuda, I can summon Ravana and have Ravana-themed spells?

The jobs also need to be more fun to play, specifically, play into their fantasy. We need something more interesting than Blue, Red and Green DPS. A WHM should have abilities derived from the elements, like stoneskin and their PvP ability of turning people into frogs. SCH need more DoTs and play into the tachtician role! Less heals and more shields, Eos should be the pet healing turret. DRK should have more mana and health management playing into the dark/death vigilante, who fights to the end for what is right. etc.

We need to demolish the homogenisation and let the min/maxers cry about it. There should be fights; certain jobs would be worse to play than others. They CAN get away with that, by the virtue of 1 character being able to play every job, one sucks in this content? Try another.
We should have more fun things to do, PvP is right now the place majority of Job fantasy resides, and I don't know how long that will be. Like seriously, let me pull every mob and polymorph it with a WHM! Let me yank mobs with WAR. Let me draw a fat chocobo who is bum-smacking the boss with a Picto. And so far and so on...

Wow, I went on a rant. But seriously, right now, the hardest part of playing any job is the fight to stay awake during content. Also, fix the scale and let us bring all of our new spells into older content. Just recalculate the potencies.

[Mikey_R]

I have been thinking a bit about these 2 posts, since they are the only ones that tried to answer the question of 'complexity' and 'depth'. The links in the quotes below are direct links to the posts I am referencing.

Post here

Post here

I think the main thing that stands out to between the 2 post is that you both seem to have differing ideas about what complexity and depth actually are. With Quuoooote saying mechanical depth is part of complexity and Shurrikhan saying complexity is real decision making, which can be seen as part of the cognitive load, which is described as Depth. Now granted, these are very simplistic oversimplifications to what was said, but that was one of the first things that stuck out at me.

Even looking at the posts deeper Quuoooote describes depth as how different mechanics interact with each other and cause friction, whereas Shurrikhan describes a similar concept, but calls it complexity.

Can you see how these sorts of discussions go nowhere when, even between 2 people, the discussion about what makes a job complex and what adds depth, whilst related, are different.

It also bugs me that a simple, objective description wasn't given. They are either described as 'look here, that is depth' or talking about cognitive load, which is a purely subjective stance. If I find one job easy to play, but someone else really struggles to play it, If I want the job to be more complex/have more depth, that is fine, but the other person says no, it is fine where it is. Both are valid points, but neither are helpful in the discussion as to what makes a job complex/deep.

If you were to ask me, I would answer the following:

Job Depth
The amount of mechanics a job has to juggle.

In the case of Bard, this is keeping track of DoTs, keeping up the song rotation, keeping on top of Repertoire procs, etc. In effect, this is purely a list of the mechanics on the job. If better fight design/job changes also allow it, this could include things like a non rotational gap closer/widener etc.

Job Complexity
This describes how the mechanics listed above interact with each other and fit together.

This is then when you get things like having 2 GCDs fighting for the same spot, so you have to make a decision, or Army's Paeon messing with your GCD speed so that Empyreal Arrow timing gets messed up, this would have been how the DoTs interact with the songs to get Repertoire procs etc. This how they both complement ach other, and create points of friction.

In my opinion, these are much better descriptors as they are objective in their meaning, there is no arguing based on how someone feels about something. However, I think the biggest thing here is that they are easy to understand. If we want to have productive conversations about these sorts of things, we don't want to bog people down with overly complex terminology if we can help it.

[Quuoooote]

Even looking at the posts deeper Quuoooote describes depth as how different mechanics interact with each other and cause friction, whereas Shurrikhan describes a similar concept, but calls it complexity.

You're misreading my intent then, because my post was meant to place explicit emphasis on decision making over mechanical difficulty. Jobs don't need to be mechanically difficult to have depth, and I thought I made my point clear using Bard's "simple" mechanics as an example. By stacking up a lot of simple spinning plates, you can create depth by forcing friction in the form of decision making.

Either way, I find it very pedantic to dismiss the entire discussion as "going nowhere" because ideas don't align one hundred percent. Isn't that what having multiple jobs is supposed to be for? Ideally there would be different designs made to appeal to different playstyles, so harping on people for wanting different things seems a bit silly. In an ideal world there would be "decision" oriented jobs and mechanically complicated jobs for people interested in them, alongside simpler jobs for those not interested in pushing their personal limits.

Why does content difficulty have to scale with literal player enjoyment anyway? Seems a bit ridiculous to me. If your jobs are ‘good in raid content’ but boring as hell in everything else you’ve still a problem. I should be having the time of my goddamn life as a healer doing Guildhests Yoshi-P

I want to pull this up from earlier in the thread for emphasis, because I agree with it one hundred percent. People insist on jobs being as simple as they are because fight complexity is built for that in mind, so what happens when someone isn't engaging in Savage/Ultimate content? If the scales were balanced a bit more between jobs and encounter difficulty, the top end wouldn't suffer, and the bottom end would get engaging gameplay for their casual MSQ experience at the same time.

[Sinstrel]

I might be an outlier, but I'd like for the jobs to become more fun instead of more complex. Some examples of what would make playing my jobs more fun would be some abilities that interact with the world and abilities that interact with the environment.

Warrior - Smashes the ground with the axe and creates a dent in the ground that you can use to duck under attacks (Berserker from Hero's gauntlet duty)

Dragoon - jumps in the air for a few seconds and you can spam heavy lance throw attacks from above until you land and enemies cant hit you until you come back down into range

Summoner - Transform into your summoned primal to execute the attacks (you can choose which summon to transform into to fit the occasion; Titan to become tanky, Ifrit for big damage, etc.)

Black mage - Creates a lightning cloud that slowly floats around and applies paralyze to any enemies walking through it

Red mage - creates a black clone and a white clone that follow the red mage around casting white/black magic for a few seconds (similar to eureka orthos)

[TeresaFortell]

How do we fix the problem? Reintroduce greater job complexity, and finding the middle ground becomes much easier. Casual or 'easy' content will become much more tolerable for advanced players if they have a lot of spinning plates or job mechanics to engage with to distract them from simple mechanics, and raids can also shift away from the "DDR" approach that many seem to dislike because more focus can be placed on managing job mechanics instead of fast-paced 'dance' movements. If you like Eureka's Logograms or Bozja's Lost Actions over OC's Phantom Job system, then you can extrapolate that thinking to how FFXIV's jobs function and hopefully appreciate how greater depth makes for a much more entertaining and dynamic gameplay experience. 'Hard' jobs is not the end goal. Engaging jobs, though, open up the design space a lot.

Whilst I agree that job complexities could provide a bit more engaging gameplay, I find it a bit difficult to believe that it would shift the "DDR" approach in raids. DDRs seem to be how content was also designed, even back in ARR and HW, and that was during a time when you also had mechanics such as TP and positionings. The only major difference, in my opinion, was that the speed of DDR has increased significantly when you compare contents from those expacs to contemporary ones.

With that said, I find it unlikely that job complexity alone would be the bridge for the middle ground, for the content difficulty would have to shift, independently and regardless of job complexity, from a DDR design philosophy to not only be challenging but also engaging.

[Mikey_R]

You're misreading my intent then, because my post was meant to place explicit emphasis on decision making over mechanical difficulty. Jobs don't need to be mechanically difficult to have depth, and I thought I made my point clear using Bard's "simple" mechanics as an example. By stacking up a lot of simple spinning plates, you can create depth by forcing friction in the form of decision making.

That is laterally what I said. To quote you from the original post:

buts is depth lies in how other mechanics interact and interfere with the simple mechanic to force decision making

As I said, how mechanics interact with each other, check, and forcing decision making, which is a form of 'friction'. Check. So I really don't understand where your complaint comes from there.

Either way, I find it very pedantic to dismiss the entire discussion as "going nowhere" because ideas don't align one hundred percent. Isn't that what having multiple jobs is supposed to be for? Ideally there would be different designs made to appeal to different playstyles, so harping on people for wanting different things seems a bit silly. In an ideal world there would be "decision" oriented jobs and mechanically complicated jobs for people interested in them, alongside simpler jobs for those not interested in pushing their personal limits.

In order to have a discussion on 'depth and complexity', all parties must be in agreement in the definition of terms so that everyone is on the same page. This means, when these things get discussed, you both know what each other means. If there are different definitions, then, as ideas are talked about, things will invariably clash and go of course.

And yes, having multiple jobs to account for different levels of complexity/depth is a good thing, however, in order to compare the different jobs, you need to have a definition of what depth and complexity means in a general sense, which you can then apply to the individual jobs to compare them. Nowhere have I stated that jobs should be the same, I am just wanting everyone to work off of the same hymn sheet.

[BlisteringFrost]

If me push only button game highlights for me. Game boring.

If me have to learn how to push button to do more number but game no show me. It make me brain feel happy when me hit stuff and see HUGE number because it mean I do it correct.

[Shurrikhan]

You don't have to take my word for it. Anyone can easily see for themselves.

This isn't a matter of ignorance; I use them already, across most of WoW's classes/specs. I just disagree that they're, on the whole, unimpactful.

Let's look at your warrants one by one, though.

I. "Just flat stat bonuses":

Out of ~40 talents each...

• Arms -- 4 stat-sticks
• Fury -- 3 stat-sticks
• Protection -- 3-5 stat-stick talents (5 if you call things that slightly change defensive focus still stat-sticks just because they have a stat in the description, which is fair enough I guess, but then it'd also be just 3 if they have to have a stat in the description instead of just being passive, so... )
• Affliction -- 0 stat-sticks
• Demonology -- ~1 stat-sticks (indirectly)
• Destruction -- 0 stat-sticks
• ...
• And no more than 12% of talents on each spec tree thereafter.

Granted, if secondary stat choice could ever be considered a customization factor here, so would these be.

II. "Just Cooldown/Cost Reductions"
The cooldown/cost reductions are more likely than not to alter your gameplay / priorities / available rotational strings in some way. So, I'm not sure why you'd think this is non-customizing...


III. "Just isolated abilities that don't interact with anything else"

Non-interaction is almost innately impossible given damage amps and competing priorities, since in the absence of rote "combos", those actually come into play. And most have explicit connection to the rest of your skills or class/spec resources anyways...

Heck, how is a stun non-gameplay in a game where you can easily live or die, even in PvE, off of a stun? CC is an actual thing there, unlike here.

_______________________

Again, I think the WoW system is granular to the point of feeling bloated, but... let's not pretend these things have no impact on complexity/gameplay. The vast majority are gameplay-affecting, even if subtly individually (as one would expect from there being 60 of them taken and some 90 choices), which probably comes from its first and foremost being an RPG system (to make level-ups feel more palpable), not just an endgame-customization system.

(Personally, I'd rather have about a 10-20% as many, for fewer but more individually compelling choices. I'm fine with not getting some new choice each level. But hey, at least it was an attempt to make each class more likely to hit a greater breadth of "strike zones" by which people might come to enjoy a given class.)

High Jump and Mirage Dive are not used like before, since they're just damage now and not gauge generators.

Version A: Use two of skill X per minute, unlocking skill Y to be used per minute. You therefore use two X and one Y per minute.
Version B: Use two X and one Y per minute.

I didn't say that it wasn't less punishing than before. I said you use them with virtually the same timings as before. To any outside viewer, your actions are pretty much identical unless the EW DRG died with Eyes ready. The change was virtually just the loss of half a 'charge' of your LotD-activation.

You cannot choose to do a double or early LotD if you need to due to the fight's timeline or the target dying soon.

You already are in the early LotD, but aye, without the, in essence, second 'charge' of LotD available, that was one loss of control.

The current iteration is actually less punishing since you can delay your damage oGCDs as much as you can as long as they're still inside your buffs, which you can also delay and be alright unless the kill time severely cuts the burst window, and your burst is always given; there's no preparation or gauge stacking required besides WWT. This also has the effect of making deaths way less punishing than before.

This is where we're probably just not seeing eye to eye. I don't consider punishment from fight outcomes (e.g., getting PKed or standing in dumb) as kit depth or complexity. (Needing to use Sonic Thrust while staying out of chariots or running from Flares? Sure. Kit-unrelated deaths? No.)

Nor do I feel like starting with a couple of what still amount to cooldowns (used at exact timings thereafter for raid buff alignment) uncharged is going to change gameplay for any minute any time after the opener so that we use at minutes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc., instead of 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. a significant change to the class.

Stormblood LotD gave us actual kit-based ways to fail our LotD usage that then interacted with the fight. As did Heavensward's BotD. EW's though... we lost double-LotD and now actually get to play with our most iconic tools in our opener. The difference just felt tiny compared to StB -> ShB (effectively removing BotD, as it ended up with a CD shorter than its duration, which could no longer be reduced by Gierskogul anyways) or HW -> StB before that.

[Avenheit]

Agree. It made it so each class had identity and it's own vibe. Making all the classes samey REALLY killed a lot of the hype of the game.

Homogenisation of classes has done irreparable damage to the game imo.