Job Complexity and Difficulty

[Valence]

You said as much that you were a veteran that claimed precedence, which sort of implies I'm expected to step aside and let MCH be tailored to your wants even if it made the job unplayable for me, and I would need to move onto another job if it doesn't suit me.
The problem with this whole "just pick another job" thing that people keep trying to push with regards to why some jobs should be more complex though, is when the remaining jobs aren't appealing for one reason or another. Just a couple of posts down you have someone acting like I should be "grateful" for WAR/WHM/SGE/DRG/DNC/RDM even though of those the only ones I actively play are DRG and RDM (and I actually don't like WAR and WHM ironically enough, they're my least favorite tank and 2nd least favorite healer), or how they didn't stop to consider that there are WAR/WHM/SGE/DRG/DNC/RDM mains that DON'T want them to be the "easy" jobs and demand they be made complex too.

And as an added bonus, they once again blame casuals for current job design instead of it being based on hardcore encounter design, because we just can't have a topic about job discussion without someone blaming the casual boogeyman for everything that's wrong. When the next job change comes sweeping in, it's not going to be due to MSQ Ann & Andy, it's because the new Ultimate or the upcoming Quantum necessitated the change in Square-Enix's eyes, same as how BLM got changed right before a new Savage and Forked Tower, not because someone was struggling to "talk to Wuk Lamat" without tripping over their staff.
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Everything being deemed "too brainless to fail" only makes failure feel a lot worse because then one is left wondering how stupid or useless they are if they screw up and die on "sooo easy" content. It's a large part of why I stopped doing roulettes once ARF, Mhach, and anything Stormblood could pop up because I knew I'd be dead weight and I wasn't going to subject other people to carrying me, or put myself in the crosshairs of others who don't tolerate having to redo a fight. Admittedly, there's also solo content that I can't do easily (Deep Dungeons/Field Operations/Masked Carnivale), and where making jobs harder (because that's what complexity ultimately amounts to knowing Square-Enix's overcompensation) would just further narrow what I can and can't do in the game anymore.

With the way things are, only one of us is allowed to be happy with jobs, and understandably you feel like its your turn given the length of time you've been made to tolerate changes that you never asked for, but it's going to come with consequences for those who started with jobs in their current form, and some of us already feel like the game is hostile and unforgiving enough when it comes to skill floors via the content. Complexity is the salt you want so things stop tasting bland, but for others that salt is getting rubbed right into wounds that Dawntrail keeps on making.

And it's not as though your perspective isn't valid, given you can recall a time where "Square-Enix wasn't always like this" and believe they can do better if given the chance, while I don't have that frame of reference, I only have the last nearly 3 years of blunders and contradictions from them (and the community at large) and thus meet all these ideas with skepticism and pessimism, and assume harder jobs will happen while content also remains hard, leaving no room for my casual ass at all.

I'm not asking you to "just pick another job", I'm asking the devs to widen the depth of jobs so that everybody can tackle them within their own skill range.
I don't know how to tell it clearer than that.

If you struggle in casual content as to become a "dead weight", "being carried" and "having people redo a fight" , it's not because of job complexity, as playing your job badly doesn't mean jackshit in dungeons and whatnot. The people that struggle as you describe struggle because they get slaughtered by the DDR, period. So let's not try and hunt job complexity when the true culprit hides behind a different face.

I do get people wanting more forms of skill expression and showcasing it that comes with more robust and complex skills systems, but I'm not as interested in embarrassing myself when I inevitably under-perform because I can't meet and manage the same complexity. I wouldn't even dare attempt the hypothetically-complex MCH that Valence suggests, because the description alone they've posted about elsewhere sounds out of my depth, and I would just move straight to retiring as a MCH main.

Now wait a minute, I don't know which one you refer to, but it was also probably written from my perspective as to what I found engaging at a higher level with it. If you think what I wrote about it was required for the job to even function and deal damage (even if subpar), then I think you're mistaken. I'm sure I could also find ways to make current MCH that I find excruciatingly bland sound complex if I talk about uninterrupted 10 Blazing Shots segments, or even something simpler as desynced WF/hypercharge sequences.

Do you need to be able to do that to play current MCH?

[Aidorouge]

I'm not asking you to "just pick another job", I'm asking the devs to widen the depth of jobs so that everybody can tackle them within their own skill range.
I don't know how to tell it clearer than that.

If you struggle in casual content as to become a "dead weight", "being carried" and "having people redo a fight" , it's not because of job complexity, as playing your job badly doesn't mean jackshit in dungeons and whatnot. The people that struggle as you describe struggle because they get slaughtered by the DDR, period. So let's not try and hunt job complexity when the true culprit hides behind a different face.

I'm aware that the encounter design is some small part of why I suck (the rest is on me), I'm just saying that added job complexity isn't going to make me suck less, and might even highlight my incompetence further as I suck in a different way. I'm already dodging jobs the same way I dodge content because I can't play them effectively, and I don't know what I would be left to play with if I'm flubbing all of them instead of just most of them.

Hell, I won't even tank or heal, no matter how much people say both roles are "super easy" now because I still managed to mess them up and died for it, but unlike being a dead DPS, I took other people with me, and that was just mortifying.

If DDR goes away and job complexity becomes the norm, it means new failure points will get created to compensate, and I don't want to be the guy who got people killed because I'm doing gray parse or whatever the lowest rank on that thing is.
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Now wait a minute, I don't know which one you refer to, but it was also probably written from my perspective as to what I found engaging at a higher level with it. If you think what I wrote about it was required for the job to even function and deal damage (even if subpar), then I think you're mistaken. I'm sure I could also find ways to make current MCH that I find excruciatingly bland sound complex if I talk about uninterrupted 10 Blazing Shots segments, or even something simpler as desynced WF/hypercharge sequences.

Do you need to be able to do that to play current MCH?

That's what I meant though, there's things you would find fun and engaging if added to the job, or added back rather as some of it was apparently how MCH played in the first place, while I would find it less fun and I wouldn't have stuck with old MCH at all.

I just don't think it's possible to make a MCH we could both enjoy at the same time.

[Aravell]

If DDR goes away and job complexity becomes the norm, it means new failure points will get created to compensate, and I don't want to be the guy who got people killed because I'm doing gray parse or whatever the lowest rank on that thing is.

If you really only do battle content up to alliance raids in terms of difficulty, then you will never wipe parties due to lack of damage.

They will never make any difficult dps check in regular dungeons or trials and any dps check in an alliance raid can easily be covered by all the other red jobs.

Personal damage only starts to matter in extremes and up, if people call out someone's damage in a regular dungeon run, then they're being a tool.

[MisterNublet]

if people call out someone's damage in a regular dungeon run, then they're being a tool.

Or people don't want to spend over twice as long in a dungeon because someone doesn't know how to press their combos or cooldowns.

[Aravell]

Or people don't want to spend over twice as long in a dungeon because someone doesn't know how to press their combos or cooldowns.

I actually went to check logs on this point to check if this was true.

In the latest dungeon (Underkeep), the fastest time achieved by a roulette-mandated light party comp is 11 minutes, so the average clear time in DF would be 14-15 minutes. I found a log with 2 grey DPS jobs, they took 19 minutes.

You'd probably lose as much time to having 1 grey DPS job as you would by having BRD+DNC comp or having a single pulling tank. It's really not that serious.

[Valence]

I actually went to check logs on this point to check if this was true.

In the latest dungeon (Underkeep), the fastest time achieved by a roulette-mandated light party comp is 11 minutes, so the average clear time in DF would be 14-15 minutes. I found a log with 2 grey DPS jobs, they took 19 minutes.

You'd probably lose as much time to having 1 grey DPS job as you would by having BRD+DNC comp or having a single pulling tank. It's really not that serious.

Or by kicking the so called culprit and waiting for a replacement while hoping said replacement is parsing gold or something.

[ovIm]

Or people don't want to spend over twice as long in a dungeon because someone doesn't know how to press their combos or cooldowns.

To me, this is indicative of an entirely different issue with the game though. Why would players not want to be in a dungeon for a couple of minutes longer? This is a video game after all, doing the activity should be so fun that you embrace doing it for a bit longer. I know that when I play Darktide, right before leaving the level, I often turn around to fire a few more shots, not because there is a reward, but because its fun and I don't want the experience to end.

Of course we know the reason - players are bored out of their mind when running a dungeon. This has already happened in ARR too, of course, but with a layout that is pretty much unchanged for such a long time (4 Packs of Mobs divided by a wall, 1 Boss, repeat 2 more times) and dull job gameplay it just gets worse, even the producer of this game claims he feels like falling asleep during a dungeon.

Of course people will chase their reward and try to get it as quick and as painless as possible (human nature and all), but if the content was fun, it would not feel so awful to be "stuck" in an instance for 10 minutes longer.

[Aidorouge]

If you really only do battle content up to alliance raids in terms of difficulty, then you will never wipe parties due to lack of damage.

They will never make any difficult dps check in regular dungeons or trials and any dps check in an alliance raid can easily be covered by all the other red jobs.

Personal damage only starts to matter in extremes and up, if people call out someone's damage in a regular dungeon run, then they're being a tool.

I know DPS checks aren't a thing NOW in normal content, hence the hypothetical "ifs".

But what other failure points could Square-Enix add if they shift away from floor barf encounter design across all content though? Why even add to job complexity if there's neither a reward or punishment for doing the job correctly or poorly?

It's not optional to be optimal right now even, because it's a good way to end up dead (and in more higher-end content, you kill everyone else too) unless you're a tank. If the DDR goes away as the source of difficulty, something WILL have to take its place, and they may saddle that onto the jobs themselves where nobody can effort to slack.