Job Complexity and Difficulty

[Shurrikhan]

And it's not as though your perspective isn't valid, given you can recall a time where "Square-Enix wasn't always like this" and believe they can do better if given the chance, while I don't have that frame of reference, I only have the last nearly 3 years of blunders and contradictions from them (and the community at large) and thus meet all these ideas with skepticism and pessimism, and assume harder jobs will happen while content also remains hard, leaving no room for my casual ass at all.

If you've already been limiting yourself to normal content where even half of optimal damage will easily get you through everything and half the effort of optimal play will already get you to 80+% of said optimal damage... why so much concern that the maximum damage (albeit with proportionately or more-than-proportionately increased effort) would increase on jobs currently considered and tuned by the devs as "easy" jobs?

Although there might for example be a couple more buttons to press, not pressing them would only leave you about the same as you were before, which would remain plentiful.

If you were at a tipping point, then those preferences could easily come into conflict, but we're talking about raising skill ceilings here, not floors, by stepping away from the "this job should only be allowed up to X degree of effort and therefore X degree of performance" concept that Yoshida himself says the game is tuned around. You'd still have increasingly diminished returns for increased effort / disproportionately high rewards for merely basic skill.

(That's not a critique, btw; imo, the game should be that way, giving just enough reward to meaningfully incentivize deeper engagement for those who feel comfortable taking that extra step with nonetheless minimal loss to accessibility.)

[Aravell]

Even if your personal intent isn't to raise the floor, other people will still demand everyone jumps to reach the ceiling anyway

In my personal experience back when jobs still had complexities, it was actually the opposite. People back then were far more hesitant to call others out on not playing perfectly because they themselves were not playing perfectly as well.

Even the high-end players found it hard to play perfectly, and that was the fun of it for me personally, the striving to reach higher, not like what we have now where you can pick up a job and figure out 90% of the job's potential after 30 minutes on a training dummy.

[Valence]

You said as much that you were a veteran that claimed precedence, which sort of implies I'm expected to step aside and let MCH be tailored to your wants even if it made the job unplayable for me, and I would need to move onto another job if it doesn't suit me.
The problem with this whole "just pick another job" thing that people keep trying to push with regards to why some jobs should be more complex though, is when the remaining jobs aren't appealing for one reason or another. Just a couple of posts down you have someone acting like I should be "grateful" for WAR/WHM/SGE/DRG/DNC/RDM even though of those the only ones I actively play are DRG and RDM (and I actually don't like WAR and WHM ironically enough, they're my least favorite tank and 2nd least favorite healer), or how they didn't stop to consider that there are WAR/WHM/SGE/DRG/DNC/RDM mains that DON'T want them to be the "easy" jobs and demand they be made complex too.

And as an added bonus, they once again blame casuals for current job design instead of it being based on hardcore encounter design, because we just can't have a topic about job discussion without someone blaming the casual boogeyman for everything that's wrong. When the next job change comes sweeping in, it's not going to be due to MSQ Ann & Andy, it's because the new Ultimate or the upcoming Quantum necessitated the change in Square-Enix's eyes, same as how BLM got changed right before a new Savage and Forked Tower, not because someone was struggling to "talk to Wuk Lamat" without tripping over their staff.
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Everything being deemed "too brainless to fail" only makes failure feel a lot worse because then one is left wondering how stupid or useless they are if they screw up and die on "sooo easy" content. It's a large part of why I stopped doing roulettes once ARF, Mhach, and anything Stormblood could pop up because I knew I'd be dead weight and I wasn't going to subject other people to carrying me, or put myself in the crosshairs of others who don't tolerate having to redo a fight. Admittedly, there's also solo content that I can't do easily (Deep Dungeons/Field Operations/Masked Carnivale), and where making jobs harder (because that's what complexity ultimately amounts to knowing Square-Enix's overcompensation) would just further narrow what I can and can't do in the game anymore.

With the way things are, only one of us is allowed to be happy with jobs, and understandably you feel like its your turn given the length of time you've been made to tolerate changes that you never asked for, but it's going to come with consequences for those who started with jobs in their current form, and some of us already feel like the game is hostile and unforgiving enough when it comes to skill floors via the content. Complexity is the salt you want so things stop tasting bland, but for others that salt is getting rubbed right into wounds that Dawntrail keeps on making.

And it's not as though your perspective isn't valid, given you can recall a time where "Square-Enix wasn't always like this" and believe they can do better if given the chance, while I don't have that frame of reference, I only have the last nearly 3 years of blunders and contradictions from them (and the community at large) and thus meet all these ideas with skepticism and pessimism, and assume harder jobs will happen while content also remains hard, leaving no room for my casual ass at all.

I'm not asking you to "just pick another job", I'm asking the devs to widen the depth of jobs so that everybody can tackle them within their own skill range.
I don't know how to tell it clearer than that.

If you struggle in casual content as to become a "dead weight", "being carried" and "having people redo a fight" , it's not because of job complexity, as playing your job badly doesn't mean jackshit in dungeons and whatnot. The people that struggle as you describe struggle because they get slaughtered by the DDR, period. So let's not try and hunt job complexity when the true culprit hides behind a different face.

I do get people wanting more forms of skill expression and showcasing it that comes with more robust and complex skills systems, but I'm not as interested in embarrassing myself when I inevitably under-perform because I can't meet and manage the same complexity. I wouldn't even dare attempt the hypothetically-complex MCH that Valence suggests, because the description alone they've posted about elsewhere sounds out of my depth, and I would just move straight to retiring as a MCH main.

Now wait a minute, I don't know which one you refer to, but it was also probably written from my perspective as to what I found engaging at a higher level with it. If you think what I wrote about it was required for the job to even function and deal damage (even if subpar), then I think you're mistaken. I'm sure I could also find ways to make current MCH that I find excruciatingly bland sound complex if I talk about uninterrupted 10 Blazing Shots segments, or even something simpler as desynced WF/hypercharge sequences.

Do you need to be able to do that to play current MCH?

[Aravell]

If DDR goes away and job complexity becomes the norm, it means new failure points will get created to compensate, and I don't want to be the guy who got people killed because I'm doing gray parse or whatever the lowest rank on that thing is.

If you really only do battle content up to alliance raids in terms of difficulty, then you will never wipe parties due to lack of damage.

They will never make any difficult dps check in regular dungeons or trials and any dps check in an alliance raid can easily be covered by all the other red jobs.

Personal damage only starts to matter in extremes and up, if people call out someone's damage in a regular dungeon run, then they're being a tool.

[MisterNublet]

if people call out someone's damage in a regular dungeon run, then they're being a tool.

Or people don't want to spend over twice as long in a dungeon because someone doesn't know how to press their combos or cooldowns.

[Aravell]

Or people don't want to spend over twice as long in a dungeon because someone doesn't know how to press their combos or cooldowns.

I actually went to check logs on this point to check if this was true.

In the latest dungeon (Underkeep), the fastest time achieved by a roulette-mandated light party comp is 11 minutes, so the average clear time in DF would be 14-15 minutes. I found a log with 2 grey DPS jobs, they took 19 minutes.

You'd probably lose as much time to having 1 grey DPS job as you would by having BRD+DNC comp or having a single pulling tank. It's really not that serious.

[Valence]

I actually went to check logs on this point to check if this was true.

In the latest dungeon (Underkeep), the fastest time achieved by a roulette-mandated light party comp is 11 minutes, so the average clear time in DF would be 14-15 minutes. I found a log with 2 grey DPS jobs, they took 19 minutes.

You'd probably lose as much time to having 1 grey DPS job as you would by having BRD+DNC comp or having a single pulling tank. It's really not that serious.

Or by kicking the so called culprit and waiting for a replacement while hoping said replacement is parsing gold or something.