Job Complexity and Difficulty

[Aravell]

Why can't PvE be more like PvP?

I think the main difference is that the objective set out by the developers in PvE content is for you to (eventually) win, while that's not the case in PvP.

Because of that, PvE encounters are set to follow a strict script that the players can solve and get their win after, contrasting with that, you cannot "solve" PvP because it involves multiple unpredictable people in the field at once. So PvE encounters are only an interaction between your job kit and the script that the boss follows, whether your buttons are useful or not depends on the script, that's why PvE feels like you can clear it just fine with just movement keys and one attack button. On the other side, PvP can actually give you just 5 buttons and be very engaging because your content is not scripted.

So why can't PvE be more like PvP? Because that would require encounters to be unscripted, and if you take unscripted encounters with the mechanics vomit that the dev team enjoys right now together, you get encounters that can occasionally spit out unsolvable mechanics, which runs counter to the end objective of letting the player win. If you then restrict the randomness so it doesn't cause unsolvable mechanics to happen, you run the risk of creating a solvable script once again.

What some of us have been asking for though, is a return of player interaction in PvE. This makes PvE encounters more random because of the players you match with, without messing too much with the scripts they enjoy writing.

[Absurdity]

I don't trust the developers to be creative with the ceiling installation, and I don't trust the community to let other people be if they decide to ignore said ceiling.
+++

Except we've already had this situation.
We wouldn't be comparing the current state of job design with the past if there wasn't a point in time where jobs were more engaging and arguably more complex.

And if we take Stormblood for example, while the player numbers weren't yet as huge as Shadowbringers (although we're on a trajectory back to those numbers), the game wasn't on fire.
We didn't have elitists flaming people in alliance raids for not playing optimally.
Because nobody actually cared how bad you played your job in casual content.

And it's not like those players have gone away just because they gradually simplified every single aspect of jobs since Shadowbringers.
They're still here and they still just press 1-2-3.
I'd even go ahead and say that it's more frustrating to see people like that now, exactly because jobs are so fool proof that seeing a Cure 1 mage or a filler-combo spammer means they're not even trying to follow what the game tells them with giant glowing buttons.
But just like back then, nobody actually cares in content where you can't really fail.

[Mawlzy]

So why can't PvE be more like PvP? Because that would require encounters to be unscripted, and if you take unscripted encounters with the mechanics vomit that the dev team enjoys right now together, you get encounters that can occasionally spit out unsolvable mechanics, which runs counter to the end objective of letting the player win. If you then restrict the randomness so it doesn't cause unsolvable mechanics to happen, you run the risk of creating a solvable script once again.

Isn't there a middle ground where there is a baseline "script," but the ability of players to interact with the boss beyond chip damage impacts how the fight plays out?

Like tanking in many of the new boss fights seems unnecessarily limited. Point the boss north. Okay. Oh look it's now jumping across the stage! And things from beyond the arena are throwing rocks at me.

There's no reason in principle why we could not stun, silence, interrupt, heavy, knock back, blind, bind, poison, yeet... the boss. Similarly for anything appearing at the side of the arena. Strikes me as far more interesting and would justify having 30 buttons.

[Raikai]

Going back to MCH again even, there's a lot of people that want it to stop being a "selfish" DPS and be turned into a buffbot like BRD and DNC, but there's a reason I don't play those jobs (and downright hate BRD). Well shucks, which MCH mains does Square-Enix cater to then when it comes to changing the job? Because somebody is SOL no matter what they do.

People want that because there's no way to balance MCH in the Phys Ranged group without overhauling it as a whole.

If you leave MCH as a selfish dps trying to do some semblance of rDPS parity with BRD and DNC, both of them will still blow MCH out of the water because how better stats (and good players) scale with the buffing support.

If you buff MCH's selfish dps to be on par with the upper tier of rDPS rankings (above Ninja), then suddenly BRD and DNC are severely outclassed in the Phys Ranged slot.

For the latter option to work they need to actually overhaul the role/slots that the aiming jobs have in PVE, which honestly it would be for the better. I think it's the most problematic role atm (with healers), if it was not for that % party composition buff, I bet we wouldn't see a lot of BRD/DNC/MCHs on static groups.

[Valence]

I mean, I love ya Valence, but I've seen the things you want to do with MCH and most of it doesn't appeal to me as someone who just wants to pew-pew things, and would rather all that stuff got dumped on BRD instead because I don't play it anyway, lol.

And then of course there's the old nugget of "if one job gets to be hard and another job stays easy, which one gets to be which"? Again I point to healers where a lot of WHM mains DON'T want to be the "derpy one" while SCH, AST, SGE get all the fun new stuff. Nor would I want NIN or RDM to become the "hard" melee DPS and caster thus forcing me to pick up different ones because I can't manage their hypothetical new complexity, but I also know full-well there's people who don't want them becoming any easier than they are because then THEY are out of a job.

So who gets catered to and who gets sent to the unemployment line? And what happens if there's not enough jobs left for someone to enjoy despite there being "so many"? What did all the BLM mains change to when what they wanted doesn't exist in another job for example?

Sure I guess, but as a veteran that got robbed of the job I loved above everything else, I claim precedence. Sorry.

Not like we can't design accessible jobs with an optional higher depth and intricacies, but if you're unable to accept playing a job not to its fullest, then yes, it's gonna suck either way, because at some point I'm starting to suspect that a lot of players asking for "chiller" or "simpler" jobs to play are actually unable to accept the idea of not playing one at 100% in reality.

To go back to an example I find pretty striking in what we had in HW/SB tanking in particular: tank stances were mostly a defensive tool that helped just a little with aggro (you gained 20% mitigation which is what modern tank mastery does automatically, lost 20% damage output, and gained +70% aggro generation, which probably went down to 40-50% after the loss in damage), but most players in casual modes tanked in tank stance, in dungeons, everywhere, like they do today, and yet, good players and tryhards would go stanceless. Most people used tank stance because it was safe, and because it was easier, and yet they played sub-optimally.

HW DRK also added another layer of optional complexity over it: Darkside was a stance that made MP being drained constantly and disabled external MP support to gain +20% on damage. It was optimal to play the job with it, and yet half of the casual playerbase if not more didn't turn Darkside on because it was a layer of complexity they didn't want to deal with. Those DRKs were everywhere in casual content, and just on Grit they could do their tank job perfectly fine.

I think the main difference is that the objective set out by the developers in PvE content is for you to (eventually) win, while that's not the case in PvP.

Because of that, PvE encounters are set to follow a strict script that the players can solve and get their win after, contrasting with that, you cannot "solve" PvP because it involves multiple unpredictable people in the field at once. So PvE encounters are only an interaction between your job kit and the script that the boss follows, whether your buttons are useful or not depends on the script, that's why PvE feels like you can clear it just fine with just movement keys and one attack button. On the other side, PvP can actually give you just 5 buttons and be very engaging because your content is not scripted.

So why can't PvE be more like PvP? Because that would require encounters to be unscripted, and if you take unscripted encounters with the mechanics vomit that the dev team enjoys right now together, you get encounters that can occasionally spit out unsolvable mechanics, which runs counter to the end objective of letting the player win. If you then restrict the randomness so it doesn't cause unsolvable mechanics to happen, you run the risk of creating a solvable script once again.

What some of us have been asking for though, is a return of player interaction in PvE. This makes PvE encounters more random because of the players you match with, without messing too much with the scripts they enjoy writing.

Remove mechanic vomit, bring back the Renauds. With more rng.

[Aravell]

Isn't there a middle ground where there is a baseline "script," but the ability of players to interact with the boss beyond chip damage impacts how the fight plays out?

We had that in older fights where CC played a role, but I assume the dev team viewed that as causing conflict in the party (for whatever reason) and removed it. Although we did get a taste of the old encounter design again in M6S adds phase, which is probably why a lot of people say it's too hard.

I think it's the most problematic role atm (with healers), if it was not for that % party composition buff, I bet we wouldn't see a lot of BRD/DNC/MCHs on static groups.

If not for the party % buff, why take a physical ranged job at all when VPR can stack up to over 8 seconds of disengage time and SMN only has 3 casts a minute while also bringing a res?

[Raikai]

Exactly. I mean, there's still value in being ranged, so VPR wouldn't take that spot as it wouldn't be viable for it. But the party composition would end up being BLM + PCT/RDM/SMN.

Phys Ranged needs a new reason to exist other than bringing that party slot buff.

[Kohashi]

As someone who is bad at PvE, I find the encounter design to be very puzzling, particularly in DT.

I have over 2 hotbars of buttons. Why? I mostly use W, S and mouse because I'm trying not to die. I imagine those of you who are good at PvE use more buttons in a set sequence, over and over and over again. Is this interesting to you? I like playing piano occasionally, but in that instance the result is a pleasing sound.

With fight design that boils down to "inflict damage, move somewhere to avoid damage/soak/couple/clap like a seal" you don't need all these buttons, particularly when you're struggling to find the good spot on the floor. The fight would be no more nor less interesting if all you had was one damage button along with W, S and mouse.

Contrast this with PvP. I use all my buttons! I am in constant motion. Every encounter is different. Sometimes I use my buttons in a different order because of the nature of the engagement and am correct to do so. I enjoy PvP and am quite good at it.

Why can't PvE be more like PvP?

You have 2 bars? Lucky you, I got 3 in the least, and most are around 4 full bars that I consistently use in a complete rotation. There is no such thing as pressing 1 button and then trying to find the safe spot. If I do that, the only safe spot that I will find is on the floor.



Also, I am all for the reduction of the button bloat. Having 4 full bars of skills it's pretty stupid.

[Supersnow845]

^i love how half the total icons there are eos auto casting embrace

Otherwise there is 27 buttons there in a 3 minute window not called broil or biolysis and of those 27 4 are chain or baneful, 3 are lucid and another 3 are aetherflow

It really doesn’t present a good picture for SCH who is already the most complex healer by a country mile anyway

[Kohashi]

^i love how half the total icons there are eos auto casting embrace

Otherwise there is 27 buttons there in a 3 minute window not called broil or biolysis and of those 27 4 are chain or baneful, 3 are lucid and another 3 are aetherflow

It really doesn’t present a good picture for SCH who is already the most complex healer by a country mile anyway

What the F are you talking about? Most of those are oGCDs, look at the damn GCDs as well.