Can Devs reconsider body checks in large raids seriously?

[forksapien]

A big problem up to 7.3 is being too catered to hardcore players - a big part is due to body checks. Body check punishes EVERYONE for someone else's mistakes, it's good for ultimate and savage, but

Look at chaotic alliance - 1 or 2 fails will wipe 24 players. It makes people very toxic - most toxic I've seen in my 6 years of play

Look at forked tower, supposedly midcore - misplacement can wipe the entire 48 people - it's not fun

The opposite (good) examples are bozja castrum, dalriada, delubrum, BA (excluding ozma). You fail a mechanic, you can die yourself and learn from it. Team won't get punished. It's fun.

This is what a midcore/casual content should be like. Yes, people can get carried, but what's the problem with that.

I think SE might be putting hardcore devs to design casual content. It's resulting in the mess in recent contents.

Please remove/reduce body checks in future midcore/casual contents, especially large raids. This will bring some hope back.

[Mawlzy]

No. They can't. They are all out of ideas.

[Jeeqbit]

It just so happens that Yoshi-P mentioned in an interview recently that one of the issues in Forked Tower may have been that they placed so much emphasis on a player's responsibility that it affects everyone else too much.

They should try to find another way if they don't intend it to be hardcore content though. What worked in Heavensward was:

• Vuln stacks (whether just on you, or on the whole party)
• Bleeds (whether just on you, or the whole party)
• Placement objects. Weeping City is just a great example of this. You place webs, you place poison areas, tanks place adds, people place meteorites. Failing mechanics can result in things such as bleeds, or 50% of people wiping that didn't get onto a poorly-placed web.
• Orb collecting so they don't overwhelm.

These are examples of mechanics that all worked in Weeping City. It was a raid where people frequently wiped to bosses and abandoned, but it really wasn't that hard. I joined Ozma in progress a lot and cleared every time. But full-wiping a good 3 or so times through the run was fairly common, and that's the exact balance they should be aiming for in casual content. 3 wipes, which make you try harder and become better to overcome it.

If things like bleeds and vulns get ignored due to our excessive mit and healing tools, then the only thing I could suggest is adding a mechanic to disable or reduce the effectiveness of our excessive mit and heals similar to the rez restriction.

I should also say if they are looking for inspiration for casual raids that aren't a joke, but don't have body checks, they could draw inspiration from:

• Weeping City
• Castrum Lacus Litore
• Dalriada (the 8-player boss wasn't tough enough in my opinion, but most runs were close leaving bodies everywhere)
• Dun Scaith (it's not my highest ranked, but you get a lot of deaths to the first boss, and other bosses at least beat people up and make them have to try and hold it together)
• Orbonne pre-nerf was alright. Not my highest ranked since in Stormblood they started getting safer, but not as safe as what came later...

[Mawlzy]

It just so happens that Yoshi-P mentioned in an interview recently that one of the issues in Forked Tower may have been that they placed so much emphasis on a player's responsibility that it affects everyone else too much.

How do they keep fucking this up?

[Uzephi]

I
If things like bleeds and vulns get ignored due to our excessive mit and healing tools, then the only thing I could suggest is adding a mechanic to disable or reduce the effectiveness of our excessive mit and heals similar to the rez restriction.

They do have debuffs that reduce incoming heals; Disease. Wouldn't be too hard to remove the heavy effect and just keep the heal reduction. They have the toolkit, it's just barely used. Also one to increase damage taken that isn't vuln (so a separate debuff that might stack); Misery. Fun way to dispel it to boot.

[FuturePastNow]

He says they may have placed too much emphasis on it, but between this and CAR I'd say they've made a clear design decision that they don't want large-scale harder fights to be carryable content in the way a group can drag a bunch of new people through BA or DRS. Like they definitely 100% had a meeting where they agreed on this direction. And whoops it's proven to be very unpopular.

[Supersnow845]

They do have debuffs that reduce incoming heals; Disease. Wouldn't be too hard to remove the heavy effect and just keep the heal reduction. They have the toolkit, it's just barely used. Also one to increase damage taken that isn't vuln (so a separate debuff that might stack); Misery. Fun way to dispel it to boot.

Misery would also be a fun way to take advantage of oracle’s AOE esuna since other than that its utility starts and ends at killing yourself with starfall

[Saraide]

The bodycheck slop is not catering to raiders, it's a big part of what made raiding feel worse than it used to. The art of recovery goes missing all because SE refuses to address the insane amount of mitigation they have stuffed into job kits over the years.

[Supersnow845]

The bodycheck slop is not catering to raiders, it's a big part of what made raiding feel worse than it used to. The art of recovery goes missing all because SE refuses to address the insane amount of mitigation they have stuffed into job kits over the years.

Square needs to remember a time when 80% of the total mitigation in a fight was a SCH hardcasting succor, not every job having between 1 and 5 mitigations

[Remolia]

I think devs no longer can design good midcore content with overbloated jobs like this.