How would you *fix* battle content?

[Supersnow845]

Ok am I like, playing a different game to everyone else or something? Tank adjustments for role parity wouldn’t actually affect their literal gameplay itself, would it? Like, at all? It’s literally just a case of numerical values.

That’s a fair point, if they completely removed the regen from holy Shelton (as an example) or removed tank mastery it wouldn’t really affect how you play a tank (you will still press holy Shelton for a buster) but it will alter the role warping capability of the secondary effects stapled to these actions (or in the case of tank mastery affect the warping nature of the fact that an attack has to pierce spreadlo and kill a DPS twice over to do more than half a tanks HP)

If certain abilities were cut out specifically so it wouldn’t change how the class plays on a second to second basis would people still oppose that? Because that position is a lot harder to defend

[BigCheez]

Ok am I like, playing a different game to everyone else or something? Tank adjustments for role parity wouldn’t actually affect their literal gameplay itself, would it? Like, at all? It’s literally just a case of numerical values.

The tank and healer roles revolve around numerical values. Of course it would affect their gameplay.

That’s a fair point, if they completely removed the regen from holy Shelton (as an example) or removed tank mastery it wouldn’t really affect how you play a tank (you will still press holy Shelton for a buster) but it will alter the role warping capability of the secondary effects stapled to these actions (or in the case of tank mastery affect the warping nature of the fact that an attack has to pierce spreadlo and kill a DPS twice over to do more than half a tanks HP)

If certain abilities were cut out specifically so it wouldn’t change how the class plays on a second to second basis would people still oppose that? Because that position is a lot harder to defend

Removing PLD's regen would not affect the way that you play a tank as much as it would affect the way that you play a healer.

Removing the tank mastery trait, so you actually have to use mitigation outside of high-end content, and reducing the effectiveness of tank mitigation across the board so you have to plan your cooldown usages would directly affect the way that you play a tank.

We have clearly identifiable markers for tankbusters. If someone can't press a single mitigation button during the 5 second warning, they should be dead. Even in casual content.

[Connor]

The tank and healer roles revolve around numerical values. Of course it would affect their gameplay.

How though? As Supersnow said above it’s not like tanks would suddenly become an unplayable mess if Rampart was 15% instead of 20% or whatever? It’s not like we’re playing some big-brain strategy game where every ability usage is a tactical decision. You’d still be using it the exact same way I think? I mean, one could maybe argue ‘we’d have to remake all our savage raid cool-down plans!’ Which like, is it really a huge deal to swap a Sheltron with a Sentinel or something?

Removing PLD's regen would not affect the way that you play a tank as much as it would affect the way that you play a healer.

Yes. That’s…the point? Tanks have as unobtrusive gameplay changes as possible while healers might actually have a reason to press a button that isn’t a filler DPS spell. Everyone wins (?). I don’t understand how that would be a detrimental situation for anyone?

[BigCheez]

How though? As Supersnow said above it’s not like tanks would suddenly become an unplayable mess if Rampart was 15% instead of 20% or whatever? It’s not like we’re playing some big-brain strategy game where every ability usage is a tactical decision. You’d still be using it the exact same way I think? I mean, one could maybe argue ‘we’d have to remake all our savage raid cool-down plans!’ Which like, is it really a huge deal to swap a Sheltron with a Sentinel or something?




Yes. That’s…the point? Tanks have as unobtrusive gameplay changes as possible while healers might actually have a reason to press a button that isn’t a filler DPS spell. Everyone wins (?). I don’t understand how that would be a detrimental situation for anyone?

It would affect casual content a lot more than it would affect high-end content. I would like a reason to use my buttons in casual content, and I would like the tanks and healers to feel more different from each other in terms of playstyle.

With the way that jobs and content are currently designed, the majority of content in the game feels like a farce. I never come out of casual content feeling like anyone played well or anything interesting happened. Either it's a normal run and the content gets blasted or you get stuck with glue sniffers and it takes forever. Either it goes well and it's boring or it goes badly and it's boring for longer.

[Connor]

It would affect casual content a lot more than it would affect high-end content. I would like a reason to use my buttons in casual content, and I would like the tanks and healers to feel more different from each other in terms of playstyle.

With the way that jobs and content are currently designed, the majority of content in the game feels like a farce. I never come out of casual content feeling like anyone played well or anything interesting happened. Either it's a normal run and the content gets blasted or you get stuck with glue sniffers and it takes forever. Either it goes well and it's boring or it goes badly and it's boring for longer.

I mean, I don’t think anyone can deny at this point that a lot of content goes that way. At the same time though, I think a lot of that is to do is problems with encounter design itself than the jobs themselves. So I always assumed that when people do make suggestions it’s with the unspoken caveat that ‘…and encounter design is also addressed’. I mean, in a vacuum, with current encounter design, things like changing healing or damage reductions probably wouldn’t make much of a difference to how interesting it is; nothing really hits hard enough anyway. The things people will argue to adjust might differ, but I think most people do agree that the encounters need to change as a prerequisite to job changes, rather than just nerfing certain abilities and calling it a day (which just sucks lol).

[ShadowyZero]

I mean, I don’t think anyone can deny at this point that a lot of content goes that way. At the same time though, I think a lot of that is to do is problems with encounter design itself than the jobs themselves. So I always assumed that when people do make suggestions it’s with the unspoken caveat that ‘…and encounter design is also addressed’. I mean, in a vacuum, with current encounter design, things like changing healing or damage reductions probably wouldn’t make much of a difference to how interesting it is; nothing really hits hard enough anyway. The things people will argue to adjust might differ, but I think most people do agree that the encounters need to change as a prerequisite to job changes, rather than just nerfing certain abilities and calling it a day (which just sucks lol).

Now see this guy gets it ^ changes would need to happen across the whole board but people are still gunna be mad for "reasons" anyways lol there is never any compromise or middleground with this community i swear XD

[Alice_Rivers]

I gave you compromise, I suggested multiple ways in which content design could change to make tanks more interesting to play in addition to making healers actually useful and creating foundations for better high end content but that was "batshit insane".

[Supersnow845]

We all have, it’s basically a glorified purity test.

“No I won’t acknowledge your opinion about tank design unless you fit a very narrow category of offered suggestions which just so happen to change everything else the most and tanks the least”

You can’t tweak around the edges your way out of a rebalance of the trinity would be primarily solved with a massive nerf to tanks. Healer gameplay needs other fixes but just to rebalance the trinity would simply require huge tank nerfs on its own

If you are worried about tank gameplay then ask for tank gameplay, not encroach on the healer gameplay and then when healers cry foul act like “well I’ve got nothing else going for my kit other than encroaching on your role”

[ShadowyZero]

We all have, it’s basically a glorified purity test.

“No I won’t acknowledge your opinion about tank design unless you fit a very narrow category of offered suggestions which just so happen to change everything else the most and tanks the least”

“well I’ve got nothing else going for my kit other than encroaching on your role”

yea? i can play this game too "oh i am so mad the tank can sustain himself i want to take away everything from him so he can feel how i feel."
or do you prefer "i am going to get all my stuff back so i can feel special or needed again but then i am just going to sit on my arse anyway til the dps drop or the tank loses a fourth of his life bar before i do anything substantial again. oh but anyway let me go back to my phone so i can keep watching my show while i eat my food call me when something happens again."
oh and lets not forget about daddy yoshi's favorite quotes to healer mains "go try ultimate, its the challenging gameplay you're looking for."
healer reply "rrAAAGHHH!!! devs hate my role they don't listen!! REEE i am mad!!! Fire Yoshi-P!!"

[Shurrikhan]

Ok am I like, playing a different game to everyone else or something? Tank adjustments for role parity wouldn’t actually affect their literal gameplay itself, would it? Like, at all? It’s literally just a case of numerical values.

Every adjustment could potentially affect it in some way... in the right context. But... given the power levels XIV tanks are at now and the staleness of content design... it'd take tremendous changes for it to noticeably affect gameplay beyond just making skill expression less of a joke as it specifically pertains to tank survival.

The larger the swing between burst and passive defense, for instance, the more a party has to coordinate around a tank. For instance, if trash could shred you outside of 30+% active mitigation (because passive mit was so reduced), you could still pull really big, sure... but you'd have to kill shit before the tank and healer ran out of cooldowns.

(I.e., we'd be "back" to the Bartam first full pull scenario where the healer declining to DPS during the tank's full mitigation could inadvertently murder the tank later from the mobs staying alive long enough to outlast all sustain CDs and overwhelm the healer's Adlo spam, oom or no oom.)

Similarly, the less the passive mitigation, the less innate reward you get from just holding threat (or, in XIV, from existing with tank stance toggled on), instead making that depend on the active mitigation you have on offer relative to what someone else could bring in that moment and over time (including, sometimes, by kiting).

(Heck, against really bursty/chaotic damage, when everyone's squishier, it may be better to cycle in DPS to take threat against an enemy of unpredictable but individually non-lethal burst damage simply because you could make greater use of HoTs, prevent the tank from being near-globaled if/when multiple mobs hit together between mitigation. You therefore end up with Enmity as more meaningful gameplay specifically because tanks are less powerful. Take that far enough and you may end up with weird strats where your Rangers kite a slow mob while the melee and tank harass the casters, with the tank splitting the faster melee enemies just far enough before their self-centered-AoE specials to keep that off melee even while melee can easily Guren/Fury/Awaken/Blitz cleave, double-DoT, etc.)