How would you *fix* battle content?

[Uzephi]

nice try you only focused on one thing an not all of what i said

Just because I clip one main thing, doesn't mean much. Maybe I like pointing out a main issue with a post instead of bolding it. In any event, if you're going to brick wall and say a wipe isn't justified when someone in your party, like the healer fails in such a way they die. You left your story so wide in interpretation adding a good plausible story to combat your flimsy argument that 'just wiping' is somehow not an answer in some situations like I brought up. IDC if it pops up, I know plenty of players who disable notifications like that so it doesn't show up in their chat log. You were not meant to 'survive long enough' without the other two legs of the trinity. If you want to complain about fight design, I'm here for it, but don't misconstrue what your role is in the dungeon.

[Supersnow845]

We’ve lived under the borked tank design for so long now people actually think tanks role is to “carry”

Like even square is so unable to balance tanks that they ruined their own gold farming cadence in OC because the tanks are too strong and people still think this is somehow good design

[Jeeqbit]

Making the trinity "matter" is pretty damn vague, tbh.

It's not because I've explained it a number of times recently when I've mentioned it. Also, any MMORPG developer should understand the concept of the holy trinity otherwise they shouldn't be in that position. The FFXIV team have played other MMORPGs, at minimum FF11, and Yoshi-P has played others.

And if done as a series of negations (e.g., by removing from each role anything outside of the narrowly defined "characteristics" of that role), it's likely to cause more harm than good.

The only "harm" it can cause is to make it harder for players to survive without cooperation from others ie. so a Warrior can't solo everything. Which is exactly the point. Yes, them being able to solo everything means they can function in a party of sprouts that don't know what they are doing, but it's also extremely anti-social and means the only factor that matters is the mechanics.

If the only factor that matters is the fight mechanics, and those happen exactly the same every time, then the run is the same every time. What made MMORPGs dynamic for so many years was the fact that it went very differently depending on the team dynamics.

They don't necessarily need to remove all cross-role aspects but we have to be honest that it's got out of hand across the board. Healers have too many heals and they cost no MP. Tanks having heals is one thing, but it's got crazy now to where they can heal themselves and half the time they can even heal themselves against the might of Savage mechanics if a healer is occupied ie. bleeds, ahk morns busters, autos. It just felt better in Heavensward where, yes it was annoying that I was powerless and relied on a healer that sometimes wasn't able to do the job, but it felt like eachother mattered, even in dungeons. And eachother mattering is important otherwise the game is anti-social, and the only thing that matters in mechanics - and since mechanics are mostly a static script, it makes people feel bored.

If by "make it matter", we mean giving healers more heal-y stuff to do, tanks more tank-y stuff to do, and DPS more to worry about with their damage-dealing than just the final enrage, then I'm all for that.

That's part of it.

If it means siphoning a bit of gameplay-unaffecting or even -devaluing power from tanks towards the other roles, then I'm all for that.

That too.

we could as easily just tune down the passive mitigation instead and retain a more interesting tank kit

I mean we could, or the abilities themselves could still exist but be nerfed. Either way works.

if it means excusing a bare minimum downtime kit for healers just because it'd be "too DPS-like" to get even a 4th offensive action

Just using ARR and Heavensward as an example, Cleric Stance made it interesting. White Mage and Scholar had a lot they could press in Stormblood. And the holy trinity mattered so much more in these expansions. The main issue isn't if they have a few more attacks or something like Cleric Stance, but just the fact they have loads of heal abilities and these abilities don't even hurt their MP. The MP that gets spent now is ironically from all the DPS they do.

When I use a Sage in the current expert dungeon, do I use any heals? Not really. Unless someone gets hit by a vuln stack. And it doesn't matter that much, because what is often a Warrior or Paladin will just use their heal raid wide to heal everyone, or heal the party member that took damage. Or, you know what, they'll just use Second Wind if I don't bother healing them. I just don't really need to heal at all. And to prove that point, you only have to get yourself killed as a healer and they'll still clear the dungeon. Is it any wonder people get bored of Expert now? Their role doesn't matter and has no importance to the point they can simply not participate in the boss fight and there will be no problems.

That's not exclusive to healers - the tank can be missing and healer+2 dps will usually beat the boss. Or 4 DPS, 4 tanks or 4 healers. Or a tank + 1 dps. Or better yet, just a tank.

And, it if means taking tank survival further out of the hands of DPS or meeting DPS checks further out of the hands of tanks and healers, denying them the incentives to be aware of the broader situation or partake in the risk-reward balances of timely at-cost offense... I'd rather not. If anything, I'd rather see DPS become more involved in party survival -- partly through selective, deliberate use of their DPS itself, but possibly also through the likes of Pacify, Interrupt, Stun, etc.

That's fine but another way is things like how we were able to apply mits directly to the tank in Stormblood. I achieve the same thing now by, say, using Addle to reduce the effect of a tank buster on a novice tank.

The point is that we need to rely on eachother and affect eachother and by our teamwork of lending eachother buffs, resources and esunas, we win together. If we can solo it or don't need one of our team members then the system is broken; the only thing that matters is the mechanics and the mechanics being the same every time has caused people to get bored in ways they were not in the past.

[Hanzz96]

Just give a simple list of like 5 things. Try to explain them in a single paragraph.
I'll start:[*]Remove survivabilty (self-heals & maybe some mitigation) from Tanks.

For one it ALWAYS feels bad when the healer dies in a dungeon and the Tank keeps going
[/LIST]

Hard disagree here. I know you guys are talking about casual content but I beg you to consider the fact that the game is balanced for everyone. In high end content tanks need that mitigation.

As it is the mitigation tanks have is pushed to the limit in savage encounters like M6s and Ultimate, no tank is suriving Powder Mark in FRU without heavy mitigation. Wave cannons in TOP would be impossible, the NA 611 tower strat in DSR would be impossible, towers in P5 of FRU require one tank to invuln and other to "kitchen sink" all their mitigation.

I get you guys don't want tanks to solo dungeons but but honestly sometimes its faster for the tank to finish off the last 5% than waste everyone's time again. Soloing is also not just tanks a dps can 100% do it if they know their kit well enough.

Someone else saying tanks can heal themselves through savage mechanics just isn't true either. No tank is surviving a twinbite tank buster or the autos in twofold tempest without a lot of healer love. I have seen tanks melt to those autos and with how the mit and damage requirements for M8s are designed they simply cannot heal themselves.

M6s is an example of tanks healing actually being bad and healers having to take on the responsibility. A WAR cannot use nascent flash in adds because the healing generated will steal enmity on the other tanks adds so both MT and OT cycle mits and rely heavily on healers.

I think maybe a better solution would be for if 3/4 party members are dead in a dungeon the 4th is also sent back to the beginning.

[Supersnow845]

Hard disagree here. I know you guys are talking about casual content but I beg you to consider the fact that the game is balanced for everyone. In high end content tanks need that mitigation. As it is the mitigation tanks have is pushed to the limit in savage encounters like M6s and Ultimate, no tank is suriving Powder Mark in FRU without heavy mitigation.

I get you guys don't want tanks to solo dungeons but but honestly sometimes its faster for the tank to finish off the last 5% than waste everyone's time again. Soloing is also not just tanks a dps can 100% do it if they know their kit well enough.

Notice how they said SELF HEALS and MAYBE some mitigation and you immediately defaulted to “we need all the mitigation that we have (that square explicitly balances around that much mitigation anyway so it’s a moot point)”

People want self heals gone, you don’t need 4 benedictions on a 25 second CD in AOE to survive powder mark

[Hanzz96]

A

Notice how they said SELF HEALS and MAYBE some mitigation and you immediately defaulted to “we need all the mitigation that we have (that square explicitly balances around that much mitigation anyway so it’s a moot point)”

People want self heals gone, you don’t need 4 benedictions on a 25 second CD in AOE to survive powder mark

No one has 4 benedictions on a 25 second cooldown you are absoutley making stuff up. Even then its only in adds in dungeons and the healers should be using aoe instead of cure boting anyway.

The tank with the most self heals is WAR and its designed that way because they have the worst invuln in the game that they WILL die from if the healer isnt on point and often they are not. They also have less mitigation since thrill of battle is extra health and not a mit (it sucks screw thrill) so yes WAR needs its healing unless they want to die though no fault of their own because invuln left them at 1hp and the healers are spamming glare.

[Supersnow845]

A

No one has 4 benedictions on a 25 second cooldown you are absoutley making stuff up. Even then its only in adds in dungeons and the healers should be using aoe instead of cure boting anyway.

The tank with the most self heals is WAR and its designed that way because they have the worst invuln in the game that they WILL die from if the healer isnt on point and often they are not. They also have less mitigation since thrill of battle is extra health and not a mit (it sucks screw thrill)

Somehow you made 3 statements and all are wrong

-in AOE every GCD under bloodwhetting is a benediction
-WAR has the best invuln in the game
-thrill is a mitigation, unless you want to consider a 20% shield as “not mitigation”

[Hanzz96]

Somehow you made 3 statements and all are wrong

-in AOE every GCD under bloodwhetting is a benediction
-WAR has the best invuln in the game
-thrill is a mitigation, unless you want to consider a 20% shield as “not mitigation”

Lets address this because i'm not wrong.

1. Holmgang is the best and worst invuln in the game. You get to use it more which makes it good. But it means you cant go below 1 health so when it ends you are on one health. If the healer isn't on point they will die which is why they have self healing.

2. Thrill is not mitigation. It is extra health and a heal for that health. Its not even a shield. Please learn the difference between shield and mitigation

3. Once again only in aoe and you should be using damaging abilities instead of cure botting

[Supersnow845]

Lets address this because i'm not wrong.

1. Holmgang is the best and worst invuln in the game. You get to use it more which makes it good. But it means you cant go below 1 health so when it ends you are on one health. If the healer isn't on point they will die which is why they have self healing.

2. Trill is not mitigation. It is extra health. There is a difference. Please learn the difference between shield and mitigation

3. Once again only in aoe and you should be using damaging abilities instead of cure botting

1) we have so much healing that “you end the invuln on one hp (which you don’t because WAR has self healing)” is completely meaningless as a downside. Nobody wants hallowed over holmgang

2) there is a difference between percentage mitigation and shields but both are mitigation, saying thrill isn’t mitigation is wrong (unless you want to tell SCH’s that spreadlo isn’t a mitigation)

3) I am using damaging abilities, I don’t need you doing the healing for me. How hard is that to understand

Your logic isn’t even consistent, you act like WAR’s self healing is meaningless to help them overcome holmgang but it being overpowered in casual content is also meaningless because the healer should be doing damage (which they already are). So what content is this self healing designed for……..soloing the boss from 95% HP, absolutely galaxy brain design

[MsQi]

Make Normal "Raids" more than a series of trials.