How would you *fix* battle content?

[ShadowyZero]

It's not about shifting blame or really any of what you said there.
A healer absolutely knows that they died because they made a mistake.
But a tank should not be able to survive without a healer, simple. Just like a DPS can't.

this is probably going to make you upset but i am going to tell you i've survived fight encounters when its just me as DPS main an a melee at that duoing boss fights with a Tank when the healers are taking a dirt nap an we have no redmage or summoner to raise them back so this excuse doesn't fly when i as melee dps literally can survive a boss encounter without a healer so should my utility get butchered too just satisfy those healers who messed up too? do i need to suck up an just die when i'm doing what my job was designed to do?
you see what it really sounds like is that you have an issue with encounter design and i did bring that up in one of responses so i think what you really want to say is not for people's favorite jobs to get gutted cause of a disgruntled healer who can't get a clue or just plain doesn't want to learn or pay attention but that you want fights to hit harder or do something that heavily requires healer mitigation an support for an we have that in some fights the doom status for example if someone doesnt get healed they take a dirt nap or if they dont get esuna'd they watch their hp drop to 0 thats what you're asking for right?

[Kirutsuki]

that you want fights to hit harder or do something that heavily requires healer mitigation.... thats what you're asking for right?

I've also survived some sections as a DPS. DPS can take the slack when the tank is down to a certain degree, but most players wont be able to pull it off so there is a balance of execution.

I would otherwise agree with your statement about encounter design, the issue is that not all encounters are always going to be the same.
And they certainly wont go back and add mechanics to old fights either, so everything up until now would remain the same.

So about encounter design; If let's say there is a poison debuff, it would have to be a tank only poison debuff that requires the healer to esuna it, since that poison would have to be incredibly stong so much so that a DPS would probably just die in 1 tick, let alone healers. So you would have to introduce certain tank specific debuff's that a healer has to keep an eye out. This is somewhat of a good way of doing it since Tank busters already kinda work this way where as a healer you want to put shields on tanks etc. But even a tankbuster in normal content is often so little damage, that the tank just naturally recovers all health either on their own or via regen.

So alot of encounters would have to have these new tank/dps specific debuffs, the healer has to keep an eye out for. But now you have an issue of the healer spamming esuna everywhere and doing 0 dps.
It can't be a simple poison debuff for all either, because the Tank can just ignore it for the most part.

So, since these new things wouldn't be implemented in old encounters I do think certain tanks need to reduce their survivability. Mainly Pal and War.
My main Tank is DRK and I already feel like I have too much survivability at times and it only has 5 abilities that have cure potency. No traits that increae the potency of those.

War has 8 PLUS 2 traits that increase their cures.
Pal has 10 abilities with cure potency and 3 traits that increase cure on some of those.
Gunbreaker has 3 self cures. No traits.

I'm not saying gut everything or even to remove the abilities, just make those abilities do something else than cure or remove the cure potency of the move on some.
There's a clear imbalance on certain tanks and what they can and cannot do that directly effects party based content.

I am playing a multiplayer game and as such I expect multiplayer content and I'm in a party I expect teamwork to some degree.
And when I see a tank solo a boss, that tank just ripped all the fun out of my game experience and I certainly didn't learn anything from the actual boss fight cause I died to a mechanic I had never seen before.
And to get better I would have to experience the boss, but the tank just didn't let me do that either.

While I agree encounter design could be one way of approaching it, it still wouldn't fix the main issue of certain tanks just having too much.

[ShadowyZero]

I am playing a multiplayer game and as such I expect multiplayer content and I'm in a party I expect teamwork to some degree.
And when I see a tank solo a boss, that tank just ripped all the fun out of my game experience and I certainly didn't learn anything from the actual boss fight cause I died to a mechanic I had never seen before.
And to get better I would have to experience the boss, but the tank just didn't let me do that either.

While I agree encounter design could be one way of approaching it, it still wouldn't fix the main issue of certain tanks just having too much.

i am glad you have been sensible in your replies thank you for that, i feel like if more talked out with points like this you could get thru to the right eyes and ears.

i do need to still counter argue you here an thats by saying that no is going to cater to you or anyone else for that matter it doesnt matter if this is multiplayer the other person or people in a group might not feel the same way that you do an thats the risk you take signing up for duties or joining random parties not everyone will do things the way you want them to do them. there is no harm in asking the tank if they could restart the fight but if they say no or say nothing back then you have the option to either leave an find some of your fc mates or friends to run it with you so you can do things how you want too or you can stay upset an mad over it an accomplish nothing.
let me preface by saying it can get absurd the amount of damage that i on a tank can sustain when in some situations not ALL of them should have been a death but this is not the fault of my job's kit or role but its the developers who designed the fights/encounters for making it that way. would i like to die more often when i play on tank ? yea of course as it would teach me what to do an watch out for or to ask a healer for some doctoring when such an event occurs it would make things more challenging too i hear this from the tank side that they get bored not dying sometimes or being challenged in some way

[Shurrikhan]

Making the trinity "matter" is pretty damn vague, tbh. And if done as a series of negations (e.g., by removing from each role anything outside of the narrowly defined "characteristics" of that role), it's likely to cause more harm than good.

If by "make it matter", we mean giving healers more heal-y stuff to do, tanks more tank-y stuff to do, and DPS more to worry about with their damage-dealing than just the final enrage, then I'm all for that.

If it means siphoning a bit of gameplay-unaffecting or even -devaluing power from tanks towards the other roles, then I'm all for that.

But if, as often suggested on recent threads, it means removing half of all sustain capacities [i.e., anything that makes you live longer without needing you to kite] from tanks (just because it's somehow "tank-y" only if a skill simultaneously increases current and maximum eHP on self and "heal-y" if it increases current eHP or current and maximum eHP on anyone else) when we could as easily just tune down the passive mitigation instead and retain a more interesting tank kit; if it means removing mit tools from DPS instead of just increasing incoming damage between the AoE nukes; if it means excusing a bare minimum downtime kit for healers just because it'd be "too DPS-like" to get even a 4th offensive action... then no, I'd rather not.

And, it if means taking tank survival further out of the hands of DPS or meeting DPS checks further out of the hands of tanks and healers, denying them the incentives to be aware of the broader situation or partake in the risk-reward balances of timely at-cost offense... I'd rather not. If anything, I'd rather see DPS become more involved in party survival -- partly through selective, deliberate use of their DPS itself, but possibly also through the likes of Pacify, Interrupt, Stun, etc. -- and healers more interestingly involved in bursty DPS checks, and tanks again able to balance offense vs. defense, etc.

[Jeeqbit]

Making the trinity "matter" is pretty damn vague, tbh.

It's not because I've explained it a number of times recently when I've mentioned it. Also, any MMORPG developer should understand the concept of the holy trinity otherwise they shouldn't be in that position. The FFXIV team have played other MMORPGs, at minimum FF11, and Yoshi-P has played others.

And if done as a series of negations (e.g., by removing from each role anything outside of the narrowly defined "characteristics" of that role), it's likely to cause more harm than good.

The only "harm" it can cause is to make it harder for players to survive without cooperation from others ie. so a Warrior can't solo everything. Which is exactly the point. Yes, them being able to solo everything means they can function in a party of sprouts that don't know what they are doing, but it's also extremely anti-social and means the only factor that matters is the mechanics.

If the only factor that matters is the fight mechanics, and those happen exactly the same every time, then the run is the same every time. What made MMORPGs dynamic for so many years was the fact that it went very differently depending on the team dynamics.

They don't necessarily need to remove all cross-role aspects but we have to be honest that it's got out of hand across the board. Healers have too many heals and they cost no MP. Tanks having heals is one thing, but it's got crazy now to where they can heal themselves and half the time they can even heal themselves against the might of Savage mechanics if a healer is occupied ie. bleeds, ahk morns busters, autos. It just felt better in Heavensward where, yes it was annoying that I was powerless and relied on a healer that sometimes wasn't able to do the job, but it felt like eachother mattered, even in dungeons. And eachother mattering is important otherwise the game is anti-social, and the only thing that matters in mechanics - and since mechanics are mostly a static script, it makes people feel bored.

If by "make it matter", we mean giving healers more heal-y stuff to do, tanks more tank-y stuff to do, and DPS more to worry about with their damage-dealing than just the final enrage, then I'm all for that.

That's part of it.

If it means siphoning a bit of gameplay-unaffecting or even -devaluing power from tanks towards the other roles, then I'm all for that.

That too.

we could as easily just tune down the passive mitigation instead and retain a more interesting tank kit

I mean we could, or the abilities themselves could still exist but be nerfed. Either way works.

if it means excusing a bare minimum downtime kit for healers just because it'd be "too DPS-like" to get even a 4th offensive action

Just using ARR and Heavensward as an example, Cleric Stance made it interesting. White Mage and Scholar had a lot they could press in Stormblood. And the holy trinity mattered so much more in these expansions. The main issue isn't if they have a few more attacks or something like Cleric Stance, but just the fact they have loads of heal abilities and these abilities don't even hurt their MP. The MP that gets spent now is ironically from all the DPS they do.

When I use a Sage in the current expert dungeon, do I use any heals? Not really. Unless someone gets hit by a vuln stack. And it doesn't matter that much, because what is often a Warrior or Paladin will just use their heal raid wide to heal everyone, or heal the party member that took damage. Or, you know what, they'll just use Second Wind if I don't bother healing them. I just don't really need to heal at all. And to prove that point, you only have to get yourself killed as a healer and they'll still clear the dungeon. Is it any wonder people get bored of Expert now? Their role doesn't matter and has no importance to the point they can simply not participate in the boss fight and there will be no problems.

That's not exclusive to healers - the tank can be missing and healer+2 dps will usually beat the boss. Or 4 DPS, 4 tanks or 4 healers. Or a tank + 1 dps. Or better yet, just a tank.

And, it if means taking tank survival further out of the hands of DPS or meeting DPS checks further out of the hands of tanks and healers, denying them the incentives to be aware of the broader situation or partake in the risk-reward balances of timely at-cost offense... I'd rather not. If anything, I'd rather see DPS become more involved in party survival -- partly through selective, deliberate use of their DPS itself, but possibly also through the likes of Pacify, Interrupt, Stun, etc.

That's fine but another way is things like how we were able to apply mits directly to the tank in Stormblood. I achieve the same thing now by, say, using Addle to reduce the effect of a tank buster on a novice tank.

The point is that we need to rely on eachother and affect eachother and by our teamwork of lending eachother buffs, resources and esunas, we win together. If we can solo it or don't need one of our team members then the system is broken; the only thing that matters is the mechanics and the mechanics being the same every time has caused people to get bored in ways they were not in the past.

[Shurrikhan]

Making the trinity "matter" is pretty damn vague, tbh.

It's not because I've explained it a number of times recently when I've mentioned it.

Cool, but you're not the only one who's mentioned it, nor are you required reading on the subject, let alone likely to enforce your particular take on what the phrase should mean among anyone else using said phrase. Which is why I said it's worth minding what details follow that ultimately fairly vague heading.

Also, any MMORPG developer should understand the concept of the holy trinity otherwise they shouldn't be in that position.

No part of my post says that developers needn't understand the concept. I'm merely pointing out that virtually every official forum poster and their grandmother seems to have critically different views of what "making the trinity matter" should entail. It seems a good banner to wave about for unanimous community action... only until it sees an ounce of detail. As such, it's important to start discussing those details early on, rather than oversimplifying the matter.

The only "harm" [removing anything that's not purely "Tankish" from tanks, "Healish" from Healers, and "DPS-ish" from DPS"] can cause is to make it harder for players to survive without cooperation from others ie. so a Warrior can't solo everything.

That's not remotely the case. It would involve, at minimum the removal of many of those interdependencies you seem to like and further reduce the potential distinctions between jobs of the same role.

What happens when "self-healing" is too "healish" for a tank while %DR is too "tankish" for a healer? Voila, now tanks have only barriers and %DRs available to them, nothing that could engage with threat of overcapping health when working around and with healers' heals, and heals can only produce potency barriers for mitigation rather than ever having max eHP increases scale synergetically with their target's existing eHP, incoming damage, or outgoing heals to the mitigated target.

That's fine but another way is things like how we were able to apply mits directly to the tank in Stormblood. I achieve the same thing now by, say, using Addle to reduce the effect of a tank buster on a novice tank.

Which is exactly the kind of thing whose removal I've heard suggested dozens of times over the last few years as an "obvious" course of "making the trinity matter".

The point is that we need to rely on eachother and affect eachother and by our teamwork of lending eachother buffs, resources and esunas, we win together.

I don't disagree. I like that interdependence. But that interdependence can be a whole lot more varied and allow for far more job flavor when that trinity isn't narrowly defined, yet narrow constraints of what it means to be a tank (essentially, nothing that could "step on the toes" of DPS or healers, even in terms of gameplay instead of capacity focus or holistically compared features), healer, or DPS is exactly what I see requested a good third of the time I see people asking for a "trinity that matters". I can't therefore agree with the request until seeing what one means by it.

To take Kiru's case as example, I have to disagree with a good half of what changes [rather than mere additions] are concrete enough to imagine out.

I want to maximize the available means of engagement for each role even while having the focuses of their responsibilities feel different. To me, balancing tanks only by reducing their skill expression would do as much gameplay harm as good, and I don't particularly care to make the minimum-maximum ilvl gap even larger as that means even more swing from decent to (now hyper-)trivial and less Savage accessibility and therefore, in effect, less worthwhile content per patch cycle.

[Supersnow845]

We’ve lived under the borked tank design for so long now people actually think tanks role is to “carry”

Like even square is so unable to balance tanks that they ruined their own gold farming cadence in OC because the tanks are too strong and people still think this is somehow good design

[Hanzz96]

Just give a simple list of like 5 things. Try to explain them in a single paragraph.
I'll start:[*]Remove survivabilty (self-heals & maybe some mitigation) from Tanks.

For one it ALWAYS feels bad when the healer dies in a dungeon and the Tank keeps going
[/LIST]

Hard disagree here. I know you guys are talking about casual content but I beg you to consider the fact that the game is balanced for everyone. In high end content tanks need that mitigation.

As it is the mitigation tanks have is pushed to the limit in savage encounters like M6s and Ultimate, no tank is suriving Powder Mark in FRU without heavy mitigation. Wave cannons in TOP would be impossible, the NA 611 tower strat in DSR would be impossible, towers in P5 of FRU require one tank to invuln and other to "kitchen sink" all their mitigation.

I get you guys don't want tanks to solo dungeons but but honestly sometimes its faster for the tank to finish off the last 5% than waste everyone's time again. Soloing is also not just tanks a dps can 100% do it if they know their kit well enough.

Someone else saying tanks can heal themselves through savage mechanics just isn't true either. No tank is surviving a twinbite tank buster or the autos in twofold tempest without a lot of healer love. I have seen tanks melt to those autos and with how the mit and damage requirements for M8s are designed they simply cannot heal themselves.

M6s is an example of tanks healing actually being bad and healers having to take on the responsibility. A WAR cannot use nascent flash in adds because the healing generated will steal enmity on the other tanks adds so both MT and OT cycle mits and rely heavily on healers.

I think maybe a better solution would be for if 3/4 party members are dead in a dungeon the 4th is also sent back to the beginning.

[Supersnow845]

Hard disagree here. I know you guys are talking about casual content but I beg you to consider the fact that the game is balanced for everyone. In high end content tanks need that mitigation. As it is the mitigation tanks have is pushed to the limit in savage encounters like M6s and Ultimate, no tank is suriving Powder Mark in FRU without heavy mitigation.

I get you guys don't want tanks to solo dungeons but but honestly sometimes its faster for the tank to finish off the last 5% than waste everyone's time again. Soloing is also not just tanks a dps can 100% do it if they know their kit well enough.

Notice how they said SELF HEALS and MAYBE some mitigation and you immediately defaulted to “we need all the mitigation that we have (that square explicitly balances around that much mitigation anyway so it’s a moot point)”

People want self heals gone, you don’t need 4 benedictions on a 25 second CD in AOE to survive powder mark

[Hanzz96]

A

Notice how they said SELF HEALS and MAYBE some mitigation and you immediately defaulted to “we need all the mitigation that we have (that square explicitly balances around that much mitigation anyway so it’s a moot point)”

People want self heals gone, you don’t need 4 benedictions on a 25 second CD in AOE to survive powder mark

No one has 4 benedictions on a 25 second cooldown you are absoutley making stuff up. Even then its only in adds in dungeons and the healers should be using aoe instead of cure boting anyway.

The tank with the most self heals is WAR and its designed that way because they have the worst invuln in the game that they WILL die from if the healer isnt on point and often they are not. They also have less mitigation since thrill of battle is extra health and not a mit (it sucks screw thrill) so yes WAR needs its healing unless they want to die though no fault of their own because invuln left them at 1hp and the healers are spamming glare.