How would you *fix* battle content?

[ShadowyZero]

[*]Remove survivabilty (self-heals & maybe some mitigation) from Tanks.

For one it ALWAYS feels bad when the healer dies in a dungeon and the Tank keeps going.
Not only to waste time, but also to showoff how healers are not a necessity at all.
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i do not agree with this take its not the tank's fault that a healer may suddenly die in combat people need to stop asking to take things away from jobs i know healer mains are angry and for a good reason but they dont need to blame it on other jobs or players
and just because it might make you personally angry that you can't contribute cause you were not paying attention to the encounter or because you made an error doesnt mean everyone else needs to suffer for your mistakes.
if it makes you that angry that the party can surive without you then start doing your homework then start learning the encounters an memorizing them.
or how about instead you just ask the development team directly to give your job an auto raise ability so that if you do make a mistake or lapse in judgement you can recover an try again is that so hard to do is it really?
the tank is the fail safe and the literal shield of the party its their literal job to carry if the group looses its healer stop being bitter for your lack of judgement or ability. learn to be humble an apologize for your errors an thank the actual tank for not making the entire team suffer starting over from the beginning of the whole fight. if the group unanimously decided to restart then thats fine but if they say its fine to let the tank carry leave it be an move on with the rest of your day this isn't a pissing contest you want that then go play PvP then you can be as useful and contribute to your hearts content an no one belittle you or think less of you for dying as thats just how it is with PvP "kill or be killed"

[Uzephi]

its their literal job to carry

Uh, no, the tank's main job in any MMO is to keep emnity, mitigate hits, and enemy placement.

Your play style will perpetuate the failure to continue. If the person is capable, but this is their first blind run, or something similar, 'carrying' them through the fight won't let them experience it. Sure, after a third time, they won't learn, but continuing the fight and stripping the player of experiencing and learning the fight is so selfish of your own time, it's mind boggling. If you don't like roulettes because you might get 'bad' or new players, que with friends. DF isn't meant for you with that 'me, me, me, don't waste my time by forcing us to restart so you can actually learn the fight, pleb.'

[Kirutsuki]

honestly there is no real way to solve the issues cause no matter what they do...

Well yea I really agree that games tend to be at their best when developers are allowed and willing to just make their game, not listening to the community too too much, but also open to admit they made a mistake and promptly fix said mistakes. Generally players will find the fun in those quirks jobs have that the devs didn't intent for, but the devs are adamant that these quirks are at the detriment of a new player trying a job. So BLM lost a bunch of it, or how Summoner was reworked. I was fine with certain jobs being more complex in the high end, it didn't mean I couldn't play a job, just that I wouldn't be as good at it. And I assume the feedback was something along the lines of new players fears of playing Black Mage.

But there seems to be maybe a cultural seperation between the meanings of the words when people give feedback. And is that translation actually accurate when it reaches the ears of the devs?
Especially when CS3's regional community managers are not really at thee forefront of community feedback it feels like. Or they are hiding somewhere just collecting unknown "data".

overworld stuff is little tougher to say...

Duels I would really dislike for overworld, the whole point of overworld is exploration and rewarind that exploration.
One of the best hings FF has ever been good at is hiding some cool weapons, gear, bosses behind exploration, but 14 doesn't do that at all.
One of the greatest things in GW2 is that the world just has some random door or a vent or an underwater passage and suddenly you're doing a jumping puzzle or an event triggers.
but in 14 the world is there, it's beautiful, but it's not used in any meaningful way. There's no reason to go see places cause you know it's just an empty house with one dude with a quest.

Ultimately the problem is multifaceted.

1. There is no meaningful gear progression to insentevise players to explore.
2. Even if there was, an expansion is only 10 levels so any gear progression would be short lived.
3. The world generally doesn't have any hidden things in it to go and see what it's about.

Like I would love hidden treasures and places that don't require a treasure map. Just things that exist in the world and reward you for visiting those areas or triggering them .

[Kirutsuki]

i do not agree with this take its not the tank's fault that a healer may suddenly die in combat people need to stop asking to take things away from jobs i know healer mains are angry and for a good reason but they dont need to blame it on other jobs or players
and just because it might make you personally angry that you can't contribute cause you were not paying attention to the encounter or because you made an error doesnt mean everyone else needs to suffer for your mistakes.

It's not about shifting blame or really any of what you said there.
A healer absolutely knows that they died because they made a mistake.
But a tank should not be able to survive without a healer, simple. Just like a DPS can't.

There is no blaming happening, but what is annoying is that IF mistakes are done which literally are unavoidable, the tank is still there soloing stuff just cause they can EVEN when they make the same mistakes.
There are times where I would personally much rather take the penalty and leave a duty, than watch a tank play solo.

You say it isn't a pissing contest, but the literal notion that a tank does 50% of the fight while the rest of the party is dead is the literal definition of what a pissing contest is.
EDIT: Just to clarify I don't mean that people take it as a pissing contest and get angry because you can solo a boss. But that you are doing something just cause you can.

[Shurrikhan]

Making the trinity "matter" is pretty damn vague, tbh. And if done as a series of negations (e.g., by removing from each role anything outside of the narrowly defined "characteristics" of that role), it's likely to cause more harm than good.

If by "make it matter", we mean giving healers more heal-y stuff to do, tanks more tank-y stuff to do, and DPS more to worry about with their damage-dealing than just the final enrage, then I'm all for that.

If it means siphoning a bit of gameplay-unaffecting or even -devaluing power from tanks towards the other roles, then I'm all for that.

But if, as often suggested on recent threads, it means removing half of all sustain capacities [i.e., anything that makes you live longer without needing you to kite] from tanks (just because it's somehow "tank-y" only if a skill simultaneously increases current and maximum eHP on self and "heal-y" if it increases current eHP or current and maximum eHP on anyone else) when we could as easily just tune down the passive mitigation instead and retain a more interesting tank kit; if it means removing mit tools from DPS instead of just increasing incoming damage between the AoE nukes; if it means excusing a bare minimum downtime kit for healers just because it'd be "too DPS-like" to get even a 4th offensive action... then no, I'd rather not.

And, it if means taking tank survival further out of the hands of DPS or meeting DPS checks further out of the hands of tanks and healers, denying them the incentives to be aware of the broader situation or partake in the risk-reward balances of timely at-cost offense... I'd rather not. If anything, I'd rather see DPS become more involved in party survival -- partly through selective, deliberate use of their DPS itself, but possibly also through the likes of Pacify, Interrupt, Stun, etc. -- and healers more interestingly involved in bursty DPS checks, and tanks again able to balance offense vs. defense, etc.

[ShadowyZero]

It's not about shifting blame or really any of what you said there.
A healer absolutely knows that they died because they made a mistake.
But a tank should not be able to survive without a healer, simple. Just like a DPS can't.

this is probably going to make you upset but i am going to tell you i've survived fight encounters when its just me as DPS main an a melee at that duoing boss fights with a Tank when the healers are taking a dirt nap an we have no redmage or summoner to raise them back so this excuse doesn't fly when i as melee dps literally can survive a boss encounter without a healer so should my utility get butchered too just satisfy those healers who messed up too? do i need to suck up an just die when i'm doing what my job was designed to do?
you see what it really sounds like is that you have an issue with encounter design and i did bring that up in one of responses so i think what you really want to say is not for people's favorite jobs to get gutted cause of a disgruntled healer who can't get a clue or just plain doesn't want to learn or pay attention but that you want fights to hit harder or do something that heavily requires healer mitigation an support for an we have that in some fights the doom status for example if someone doesnt get healed they take a dirt nap or if they dont get esuna'd they watch their hp drop to 0 thats what you're asking for right?

[ShadowyZero]

Uh, no, the tank's main job in any MMO is to keep emnity, mitigate hits, and enemy placement.

Your play style will perpetuate the failure to continue. If the person is capable, but this is their first blind run, or something similar, 'carrying' them through the fight won't let them experience it. Sure, after a third time, they won't learn, but continuing the fight and stripping the player of experiencing and learning the fight is so selfish of your own time, it's mind boggling. If you don't like roulettes because you might get 'bad' or new players, que with friends. DF isn't meant for you with that 'me, me, me, don't waste my time by forcing us to restart so you can actually learn the fight, pleb.'

nice try you only focused on one thing an not all of what i said an fyi i didnt bring up new players you did. everyone knows when someone is new it literally pops up in their vision at the start of the dungeon or raid or trial an if the new player asked if they could do a re-try most times the tank will be nice an say yes an no big deal for them.
and with tanks yes keeping enemity i/e distracting the enemy is part of their role but see you focused in on only one thing or word i said an are not crediting for the rest when their is no healer alive then it falls to the tank to use his/her mitigation to maintain the enemies focus for as long as possible until the healer can get back up or until they kick the bucket too just as its the DPS' job to kill everything dead an make sure that it stays down so that the fight can progress or the dungeon can progress people make mistakes do you see the party getting mad alot when the healer drops dead an insult them or get mad about it? no you dont an usually people who are jerks about it get kicked or pay the GM a visit in Gaol lol so let me ask you should you not then extend that same courtesy to the tank when they are trying to just stay alive long enough to see the duty to its completion?
like i get it you're mad you didn't get to play cause of one mistake or misstep but again that would be your own fault and it would be a flaw or problem with the encounter itself its not the tank's fault they are doing what they were designed to do Survive long enough to reach a duty completion screen while having held the enemies' attention the whole way thru.
so be humble try playing a tank for one whole week i promise you will change your thinking right away an will be thankful the healer was at least "just there" to assist an make things a little easier an smoother even if they nose dived at the end you are not mad at them just glad they stuck it out long enough to reach the end period.

[Toutatis]

blah blah blah.

No, it’s not normal for a tank to be able to solo 4/8m duties and, in some cases, with a ridiculous amount of vuln stacks. I play tank pretty often and it’s a joke to survive in normal mode.

Also, the healer dying is not always the healer’s fault: it can be the tank’s fault or the fault of some others in the group (i.e. not stacking when needed, tank moving on group at the last second with a tank buster, no mitigation when needed). Some fights are survivable on well geared dps but not all are due to aoe and that’s even when the tank uses appropriate mitigation. Some dps are also more “squishy” than others. Selfish tanks are the worse and end up on my blacklist.

I am also sure that tanks were not designed for the purpose of soloing an entire synched duty when the group lies dead: it’s more one of those savage/normal mode imbalances that SE does not bother to fix. Btw, on lower level duties tanks do not have this survivability. It started to become a problem with EW and it’s been greatly exacerbated in DT.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]so be humble try playing a tank for one whole week i promise you will change your thinking right away an will be thankful the healer was at least "just there" to assist an make things a little easier an smoother even if they nose dived at the end you are not mad at them just glad they stuck it out long enough to reach the end period.

Been playing all 4 tanks in daily roulettes for years solely to get the 700/900 credits achievements without spamming o3n PFs - yeah no. I don't think it's a mad notion to wanting most of the HPS requirement being handled by the healer. Not the dps. And certainly not the tanks. But in good amount of my dungeon runs, that's just not the case. Sure, encounter design also affects this, but they're not mutually exclusive. Trying to pretend tanks' sustenance in their kits not being bloated is comical at this point. I should not be able to solo/duo bosses from <=65% even as a Dark Knight without the healer, or straight up replace them because it's more optimal to bring 3rd DPS.

If people were to ask for my opinion, NONE of the self sustains they've gained since the start of 6.0 were 'needed' at all. Warrior's SIO regen? RI/NF/BW change? Equilibrium HoT? Damnation HoT? No, they're all excessive. Paladin's HS regen? Intervention regen? maybe even their built in heals from their spells? No, they don't need those all. Gunbreaker's Aurora charges and buff? HoC heal? Pfftt not even close. Dark Knight was 'the best' imho until they somehow decides to buff Abyssal Drain. Great, yet another benediction at 1 minute cooldown has joined the tank's arsenal.

EDIT: there's also what I'd call the unforeseen collateral damage that they've created by letting tanks handle this much amount of required HPS for so long - is the healer would just phase out & conditioned to not actually heal when they needed to. I don't think that's a sentiment you'd like to foster.

[Kirutsuki]

that you want fights to hit harder or do something that heavily requires healer mitigation.... thats what you're asking for right?

I've also survived some sections as a DPS. DPS can take the slack when the tank is down to a certain degree, but most players wont be able to pull it off so there is a balance of execution.

I would otherwise agree with your statement about encounter design, the issue is that not all encounters are always going to be the same.
And they certainly wont go back and add mechanics to old fights either, so everything up until now would remain the same.

So about encounter design; If let's say there is a poison debuff, it would have to be a tank only poison debuff that requires the healer to esuna it, since that poison would have to be incredibly stong so much so that a DPS would probably just die in 1 tick, let alone healers. So you would have to introduce certain tank specific debuff's that a healer has to keep an eye out. This is somewhat of a good way of doing it since Tank busters already kinda work this way where as a healer you want to put shields on tanks etc. But even a tankbuster in normal content is often so little damage, that the tank just naturally recovers all health either on their own or via regen.

So alot of encounters would have to have these new tank/dps specific debuffs, the healer has to keep an eye out for. But now you have an issue of the healer spamming esuna everywhere and doing 0 dps.
It can't be a simple poison debuff for all either, because the Tank can just ignore it for the most part.

So, since these new things wouldn't be implemented in old encounters I do think certain tanks need to reduce their survivability. Mainly Pal and War.
My main Tank is DRK and I already feel like I have too much survivability at times and it only has 5 abilities that have cure potency. No traits that increae the potency of those.

War has 8 PLUS 2 traits that increase their cures.
Pal has 10 abilities with cure potency and 3 traits that increase cure on some of those.
Gunbreaker has 3 self cures. No traits.

I'm not saying gut everything or even to remove the abilities, just make those abilities do something else than cure or remove the cure potency of the move on some.
There's a clear imbalance on certain tanks and what they can and cannot do that directly effects party based content.

I am playing a multiplayer game and as such I expect multiplayer content and I'm in a party I expect teamwork to some degree.
And when I see a tank solo a boss, that tank just ripped all the fun out of my game experience and I certainly didn't learn anything from the actual boss fight cause I died to a mechanic I had never seen before.
And to get better I would have to experience the boss, but the tank just didn't let me do that either.

While I agree encounter design could be one way of approaching it, it still wouldn't fix the main issue of certain tanks just having too much.