Finally tried WoW

[Shurrikhan]

WoW's storytelling is fundamentally hamstringed because of the moment-to-moment experience. You walk up to an NPC and click him and read paragraphs of quest text which is located in a small window of your monitor. You accept tens of thousands of quests in this game, which means tens of thousands of paragraphs, so the player quickly learns to skim over the quest text and just hit accept. Then the NPC starts walking and talking, and may or may not summarize the quest text.

Absolutely a problem with the base game, but given I could say the same for playing XIV without SimpleTweaks or the like, I gotta say:

Download WoW's Immersion addon. You then have at least the quality of the XIV quest/dialogue textboxes. Since trying it, I cannot enjoyably quest without it, especially give my ultrawide monitor placing the quest in left-edge Narnia.

Here is what WoW has that I absolutely do not want to see in FFXIV: Entire Open World Level Scaling, Item Level Scaling, progression locked behind dailies, handout legendaries, epics, etc, borrowed power features.

That's fair.

I don't quite understand the concerns about borrowed power features when XIV's every tier is essentially "borrowed power" due to ease of catch-up, but as long as one doesn't want customization at all, as in XIV, I see why one would rather not offer any seasonal/expansion-limited customization no matter how well it might work for being a bit more thematic or experimental.

As for the others, yeah, they've been controversial in WoW as well. I happen to prefer them (minus the dailies-limited progression, though that's pretty well disposed of in favor of ever-increasing seasonal progress caps), but only just barely, and would have probably preferred a slightly different balance between freedom and immersion, or at least other complementary features (I hate being unable to find a threatening open world mob now, for instance).

[Striker44]

I don't quite understand the concerns about borrowed power features when XIV's every tier is essentially "borrowed power" due to ease of catch-up, but as long as one doesn't want customization at all, as in XIV, I see why one would rather not offer any seasonal/expansion-limited customization no matter how well it might work for being a bit more thematic or experimental.

The "borrowed power" thing in WoW isn't just about item level, it's the actual extra abilities and the like that become a core part of each expansion, and then disappear the next one in favor of some new system.

As a different example, I'll bring up Destiny 2. Each expansion features its own "artifact" you level up along with specific armor mods, all of which are then "broken" when the new set releases. But it causes problems. One expansion features content with traps that can one-shot you...except you can use the "borrowed power" feature to make it no longer one-shot you. Once a new expansion arrives, however, the equivalent of "roulettes" in that game can put you back in the old content with the one-shot traps...except now you no longer can get the thing that protects you from them. Oops!

All FFXIV has for standard gearing is steadily increasing item levels, but there's no "borrowed power" attached to them. The closest thing we have are the systems like Lost Actions, Phantom Jobs, etc,. but their use is contained entirely to the zones they're designed for, and they remain in the game for all time if you go back later.

[WeebStarz]

1. true
2. Features only work in undermind car and dragon FFXIV Choocbo with barding is better
3. questionable
4. You have to be joking
5a. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDOkGtnGM0s
5b. https://www.reddit.com/r/Trailerclub...ics_before_vs/
6. Have to be joking
7. we all know DPS is a 20-40min wait for herioc or normal
8. Dungeons are better and m+ rocks
9. true
10. traditional mmo 1 button gathering system no skills
11. circling world quest same as Fate grind so you must be new to WOW
12. Timewalking is mode that allows old dungeons to give catch up gear to new players and fills wows version of tomb grind, you cant do old story lines because of timewalking you have to create a new character and do chromie time
13. true
14. true but wow is 1 job per 1 character
15. And after new player boost he is kicked in everyone dungeon party once he moves to slow, cant get a normal raid pug because of lack of achievements, and is not getting m+ invite because of lack of raider.io
16. true
17. true
18. true

[Masekase_Hurricane]

1. true
2. Features only work in undermind car and dragon FFXIV Choocbo with barding is better
3. questionable
4. You have to be joking
5a. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDOkGtnGM0s
5b. https://www.reddit.com/r/Trailerclub...ics_before_vs/
6. Have to be joking
7. we all know DPS is a 20-40min wait for herioc or normal
8. Dungeons are better and m+ rocks
9. true
10. traditional mmo 1 button gathering system no skills
11. circling world quest same as Fate grind so you must be new to WOW
12. Timewalking is mode that allows old dungeons to give catch up gear to new players and fills wows version of tomb grind, you cant do old story lines because of timewalking you have to create a new character and do chromie time
13. true
14. true but wow is 1 job per 1 character
15. And after new player boost he is kicked in everyone dungeon party once he moves to slow, cant get a normal raid pug because of lack of achievements, and is not getting m+ invite because of lack of raider.io
16. true
17. true
18. true

2. How? I can change wing type, colour, scales etc. I much prefer that to barding.
5. We too had one of those scenes which was a feck up. Check the rest of the current expansion cutscenes..
6. Not sure how when they give you a lift, talk while you walk instead of meet me here, then tell me a long story or bring me a sandwich, at least wow gets you to interact and make the sandwich :P
7. longest wait so far for normal was 9mins on dps. As for mythic not tried it yet, queues have still been max 9 mins at 1am
10. I'd take gathering with one button and getting exp on main class at the same time over a gathering rotation..
11. I think finally trying WoW means <drumroll>.... i'm new to WoW
15. Yes we see that in 14 dungeons too, but it's going to be prevalent in WoW due to more players..

[Shurrikhan]

15. And after new player boost he is kicked in everyone dungeon party once he moves to slow, cant get a normal raid pug because of lack of achievements, and is not getting m+ invite because of lack of raider.io

They have a Squadron-equivalent in WoW, through which one can learn the basics of dungeoning. And if he can manage said bare basics (follow tank, shoot the shootables and/or keep tank alive), he's unlikely to get kicked. Tanking is the only role more demanding (for frequent lack of XIV-style hallway-only dungeons).

Not being able to get into Normal Raid because of lack of achievements seems a cherrypicked exception to the norm. As for not getting into Heroic, see Savage PFs by week 3.

RaiderIO has not existed in quite a while, having been replaced with, in essence, incredibly granular in-game achievement points that, for the sake of letting others' know how much experience you have with Mythic+... simply measure exactly how far he's gotten in M+ (his best run, overall progress, and progress specifically in the dungeon he's signing up for).

This is like complaining about not being accepted to a clear party because you haven't yet completed phase 1 of a given fight. It's just that this is spread out among 10 difficulty levels each for 8 different dungeons per season.

When you average +3s and have at least a +3 in the dungeon you're going for, it's not hard to be accepted into a +4 or even a +5 so long as you're reasonably geared for that difficulty level. The larger factor, usually, is what utilities/raidbuffs you bring, as WoW tends to be a bit more "bring the class, not just the player" than XIV does.

[Raikai]

The "borrowed power" thing in WoW isn't just about item level, it's the actual extra abilities and the like that become a core part of each expansion, and then disappear the next one in favor of some new system.

As a different example, I'll bring up Destiny 2. Each expansion features its own "artifact" you level up along with specific armor mods, all of which are then "broken" when the new set releases. But it causes problems. One expansion features content with traps that can one-shot you...except you can use the "borrowed power" feature to make it no longer one-shot you. Once a new expansion arrives, however, the equivalent of "roulettes" in that game can put you back in the old content with the one-shot traps...except now you no longer can get the thing that protects you from them. Oops!

All FFXIV has for standard gearing is steadily increasing item levels, but there's no "borrowed power" attached to them. The closest thing we have are the systems like Lost Actions, Phantom Jobs, etc,. but their use is contained entirely to the zones they're designed for, and they remain in the game for all time if you go back later.

WoW really got away from borrowed power being predatory.

It was an issue when it actually changed core aspects of the classes, and like you said, felt bad when it was discontinued 2yrs later.

Right now they do have temporary power stuff, like the Cyrce's Circlet, the new Delve Belt or the upcoming Reshii Wraps, but all of them were just BIS items with generic procs. No different than the trinkets you get every Season or even the class tier set's bonuses.

[Arrius]

WoW really got away from borrowed power being predatory.

It was an issue when it actually changed core aspects of the classes, and like you said, felt bad when it was discontinued 2yrs later.

Right now they do have temporary power stuff, like the Cyrce's Circlet, the new Delve Belt or the upcoming Reshii Wraps, but all of them were just BIS items with generic procs. No different than the trinkets you get every Season or even the class tier set's bonuses.

Keep in mind, the Reshii Wraps cloak comes with that there will be no other cloak drops for that patch content - Making it the ONLY choice by design.

With the ring and belt you were able to out-do its performance by high end drops, but the wraps are basically forced upon you with no alternative.

[Shurrikhan]

The "borrowed power" thing in WoW isn't just about item level, it's the actual extra abilities and the like that become a core part of each expansion, and then disappear the next one....

So... like our secondary stat percentages and job distinction, which is literally all of the customization available to us... except that agency also gets less and less with each expansion while borrowed powers instead refine themselves and generally become (between themselves and whatever is made part of the "general" experience) more and more customizable.

Here in XIV, we start each expansion with less agency, less customization. Over time we gradually get back to what we had. And then we reset back to very little.

It just happens to be the bare minimum version of that, instead of attempting anything experimental (and learnable from) or thematic to the given expansion.

Keep in mind, the Reshii Wraps cloak comes with that there will be no other cloak drops for that patch content - Making it the ONLY choice by design.

With the ring and belt you were able to out-do its performance by high end drops, but the wraps are basically forced upon you with no alternative.

As with the ring and belt before, you get to choose exactly the secondaries/bonuses you want, same as if you had the luck enough to loot every cloak in the game at the highest possible upgrade tier and then choose between them... You're not losing any customization there. It's just an RNG-less catch-up drop that makes crafting more important.

It's more deterministic gearing with more social/economical interaction. And this is what we choose to demonize?

[Arrius]

It's more deterministic gearing with more social/economical interaction. And this is what we choose to demonize?

If it's to pad out otherwise bland side-content, then yes. I don't see many that would have done Overcharged Delves if not for the belt and the upgrades - The rewards in the delves themselves don't get better when doing them, and you have more enemies to deal with.
At the very least Siren Isle was good enough for the Blessed-Iron currency and all the mogs/mounts/toys you could get while you were getting your ring together.

[MayuAmakura]

People who say: ''just play something else", "you are burned out bro its okay".

Like the job of mmorpg is to keep you hyped, but ffxiv is the only one that tries to make it repulsive as possible + boring. Nobody likes waiting for a mere content to appear and then again wonder what you are going to do. Afk in towns 24/7.

Just because someone has an opinion on what should be fixed and done, doesn't mean that he got burned out. It means that the player cares about the current state and wants something better for everyone.