PvP Frontline, same old, nothing new

[Valence]

Ah, so this is actually yet another veiled complaint thread about premades I take it? Otherwise it absolutely would be the case that some people are going to put in the effort to be knowledgeable and "git good," while others are going to queue-up once to get their 40 tomestones, die to everything and then whine about how everything they don't play is broken, and continue to be "bad."

You can also be steamrolled just as hard in casual CC for similar, but ultimately different reasons. Smallscale CC is clearly their priority for balancing, and because of it, core job abilities in their largescale modes go untouched and all of their adjustments are delegated to sweeping defense and damage modifiers across everything, and LB gauge fill speed adjustments. Asking for more development resources to be put into FL, which is largely seen as a meme in NA for several different reasons and not nearly as competitive as CC, is a tall ask. It sucks, but most vets already know nothing big ever happens to Frontlines systems if its not on the heels of a new expansion. That ship has sailed for DT. At best, we can hope for more impactful role actions.

You can choose not to believe or ignore the typical prevailing JP mentality regarding FL and their different, yet coordinated playstyle- but it is actually relevant. It has nothing to do about anybody being aliens or humans, but how their societal differences cause them to handle content differently from us. You can already see this sort of thing in their clear rates all the way down to their usage and expectations in DF and PF as opposed to ours. The DRK draw-in tactic isn't as effective there because a larger demographic of their players fundamentally understand how to avoid or survive it, sometimes counter it, and are not just there "for the tomestones." If they were having problems, we would absolutely see changes more frequently.

Premades running meta comps flourish here primarily because there's no lack of 0-effort fodder to farm Battle High off of. Some people like to rag on Olivia around here, but when they said that bringing-up the skill level of NA players is the solution to countering premades, it actually is. Until then, without me getting specific, meta comp premades will continue to feed off of the over-abundance of forever-no-Battle High indifferent players that will stand there and die to everything.

If you took this as a veiled complaint about premades, you not only missed my whole post history about the matter (which I don't blame you for), but also the entire point of this thread, which is specifically targeting bad designs and a lack of care for the mode (or either an unhealthy endorsement of that kind of gameplay by the devs which I'd find pretty horrifying).

The idea that the devs listen to JP more is also one of those memes that gets flung around on the western part, which is amusing when you read the exact same opposite on the other side of the fence. In fact, the idea that JP is so much better at everything in the game than the west is also one of those memes.

If your state of mind is "I don't understand why you bother trying to make things better because they never get better", then I guess it explains a lot about the state of the world right now as well. And if you're one of those that seemingly never learn the lesson and tell us to stop bringing up complaints because things aren't gonna change before the next expansion, you'll have to realize that waiting for the next expansion to be actually finished and released is already too late. If anything, this is the right moment to point fingers at problems.

[Cidel]

If you took this as a veiled complaint about premades, you not only missed my whole post history about the matter (which I don't blame you for), but also the entire point of this thread, which is specifically targeting bad designs and a lack of care for the mode (or either an unhealthy endorsement of that kind of gameplay by the devs which I'd find pretty horrifying).

The idea that the devs listen to JP more is also one of those memes that gets flung around on the western part, which is amusing when you read the exact same opposite on the other side of the fence. In fact, the idea that JP is so much better at everything in the game than the west is also one of those memes.

If your state of mind is "I don't understand why you bother trying to make things better because they never get better", then I guess it explains a lot about the state of the world right now as well. And if you're one of those that seemingly never learn the lesson and tell us to stop bringing up complaints because things aren't gonna change before the next expansion, you'll have to realize that waiting for the next expansion to be actually finished and released is already too late. If anything, this is the right moment to point fingers at problems.

We both know I'm not going to comb your post history about how you feel about premades; I'm responding to what you've laid out here. The thing is, from what I'm reading you've seem to have lumped the existence of premades in with this bad design and lack of care. "Premade fiesta," "their own little premades," "sweaty tryhards" and emphasis on "steamrolling;" I'm picking-up a lot of jadedness on that issue. Other than that, you've alluded to the concentrated AoE meta being problematic, DRKs (both components of the meta premade comps), and the existence of super-casuals and "tryhards" and the expected outcome of that relationship.

You keep side-stepping the JP behavioral argument and brushing it off as some urban myth or meme, as if it has no effect on however FL gets designed, while admitting that you haven't done any research or seen for yourself about how their matches and groupfights tend to play out. So if you don't want to acknowledge that elephant in the room, you aren't ever going to be satisfied with whatever so-called answer you're wanting from SE in response to how NA players behave. I'll say this again, if you're actually serious about SE addressing the design choices in FL, get some feedback from JP first; otherwise you're not seeing how their half of the playerbase interacts with and feels about the design.

And spare me your philosophical analyses; this thread thus far hasn't exactly given SE a blueprint on how to improve FL (for who, really?), and the first post comes off as little more than a blogpost with some rhetorical questions. If you truly believe asking the PvP intern developer to question their design choices in regards to how NA behaves to it, then you do you. I've been around here long enough to see where largescale PvP specifically falls on their priority list, so you'll have to excuse my cynicism. If you want to see FL-only changes before next expansion, I'd suggest creating a more succinct list of feedback describing exactly what issues you have with the current state of FL. Otherwise it comes off more as a rant thread.

[Valence]

We both know I'm not going to comb your post history about how you feel about premades; I'm responding to what you've laid out here.

That's why I wrote that I wouldn't blame you for it. Nobody in their right mind would parse post histories of anybody. But I've repeatedly talked against people screaming their minds out about how premades were the worst thing on the planet and should be removed, and how they didn't care especially for all the actual premade groups of friends going in casually without steamrolling tactics in mind. I've been of the mind since day one that the problem arises from bad design decisions.

There is jadedness because while I can myself deal perfectly fine with premades, it's becoming incredibly harder to actually delete their members because premades for one, do learn, and because deleting their key members (like the tanks) usually involves your team actually participating, else you'll just suicide your wind/meteodrive into nothing. The reason this works less and less is because people have also learned to identify premades better and they just flee immediately and I don't blame them for it. It's very pavlovian in nature: if they die from a full alliance wipe at the first engagement, they will not try again for the remainder of the game. And as said in the OP, the addition of stuff like rampage, rampart, bloodbath etc, not only makes premade players incredibly harder to pin down and kill, but it also gives them tools to facilitate the slaughter by bypassing and even outdoing the progressive AoE nerfs that SE gave to jobs over time (DRG, etc).

And this doesn't even start addressing the worst of all: being paired in the team of the premade, which is the most excruciatingly boring shit that can ever happen. That those players actually find this fun, I will never understand.

You keep side-stepping the JP behavioral argument and brushing it off as some urban myth or meme, as if it has no effect on however FL gets designed, while admitting that you haven't done any research or seen for yourself about how their matches and groupfights tend to play out. So if you don't want to acknowledge that elephant in the room, you aren't ever going to be satisfied with whatever so-called answer you're wanting from SE in response to how NA players behave. I'll say this again, if you're actually serious about SE addressing the design choices in FL, get some feedback from JP first; otherwise you're not seeing how their half of the playerbase interacts with and feels about the design.

I'm asking for nothing more to make some research, but the problem is that there is literally zero way for me to do so unless leveling an actual alt on JP worlds, which is too much effort especially considering then I'd have to run a good sample of games to make sure there is different trends that I can notice.
The reason I'm being doubtful about it is because of people's natural tendency to overblow cultural differences as it's been a literally trend on those forums for ages.

You keep asking me for research and to get my own evidence yet I've yet to see anybody actually explain to me how it behaves differently on JP. All I've been told is that they don't have the problem. Then why? What is the meta they do follow? Do they also use AoE doomstacks? If not, then why? What makes it so different as what people claim? Even in the west when you get queue syncs, people don't suddenly change their meta when every team is filled with premades, because it still steamrolls as well as it does, and it also counters itself the best.

I also have my own CC experience to inform me of the small differences that EW saw between EU/NA and JP at high level, and it seemed to stem from one side lacking complete discipline and control and leaving their backline die if it meant going for kills, while the other side was at the opposite glued into a formalism that lacked creativity and initiative. The latter actually makes me wonder how JP would deal with our own meta.

And spare me your philosophical analyses; this thread thus far hasn't exactly given SE a blueprint on how to improve FL (for who, really?), and the first post comes off as little more than a blogpost with some rhetorical questions. If you truly believe asking the PvP intern developer to question their design choices in regards to how NA behaves to it, then you do you. I've been around here long enough to see where largescale PvP specifically falls on their priority list, so you'll have to excuse my cynicism. If you want to see FL-only changes before next expansion, I'd suggest creating a more succinct list of feedback describing exactly what issues you have with the current state of FL. Otherwise it comes off more as a rant thread.

I'm sorry, I am not a game designer, I don't have years to work on this, and I'm not paid to do so either. I'm giving feedback of something that I do consider problematic. I do genuinely hope that you're not here like that other forum poster to dismiss anything that doesn't come with a formal essay about the technicality of solutions to bring up to fix the issue, because that's frankly ridiculous. If anything, beware of people that instantly come up with clear, simple and evident solutions. I am also cynical enough not to expect much of it, but then I'd question why you even bother replying or posting in the first place if you're jaded enough not to care anymore at all.

[Cidel]

There is jadedness because while I can myself deal perfectly fine with premades, it's becoming incredibly harder to actually delete their members because premades for one, do learn, and because deleting their key members (like the tanks) usually involves your team actually participating, else you'll just suicide your wind/meteodrive into nothing. The reason this works less and less is because people have also learned to identify premades better and they just flee immediately and I don't blame them for it. It's very pavlovian in nature: if they die from a full alliance wipe at the first engagement, they will not try again for the remainder of the game. And as said in the OP, the addition of stuff like rampage, rampart, bloodbath etc, not only makes premade players incredibly harder to pin down and kill, but it also gives them tools to facilitate the slaughter by bypassing and even outdoing the progressive AoE nerfs that SE gave to jobs over time (DRG, etc).

So then you're dissatisfied with the general lack of skill or lack of effort of your average NA player? I mean I get it, it's frustrating to be on that team that just stands there, tunnel-visioning when you see an obvious (oftentimes marked) DRK running-up to plunge into a cluster of unaware people whose only reaction is to run the opposite direction and end up dying instead of reactively Guarding or Purifying and surviving the follow-ups. Something like that is completely possible outside of premades anyway though. All it takes is one DRK with a macro and a team that pays attention and can chew gum and walk. As I already stated, that's always going to be a skill issue. People have the tools to mitigate and lessen the impact of it. The problem is most aren't even aware of them.

I'm asking for nothing more to make some research, but the problem is that there is literally zero way for me to do so unless leveling an actual alt on JP worlds, which is too much effort especially considering then I'd have to run a good sample of games to make sure there is different trends that I can notice.
The reason I'm being doubtful about it is because of people's natural tendency to overblow cultural differences as it's been a literally trend on those forums for ages.

You keep asking me for research and to get my own evidence yet I've yet to see anybody actually explain to me how it behaves differently on JP. All I've been told is that they don't have the problem. Then why? What is the meta they do follow? Do they also use AoE doomstacks? If not, then why? What makes it so different as what people claim? Even in the west when you get queue syncs, people don't suddenly change their meta when every team is filled with premades, because it still steamrolls as well as it does, and it also counters itself the best.

While it's not plastered all over about how the JP function in Frontlines, a little searching in places like here or even reddit of all places do have some people providing comments or even detailed insight to how their behaviors out on the JP datacenter works. I'd be happy to give you a quick and dirty rundown of what I've gathered/seen regarding how their side treats Frontlines if you're looking for specifics:

• 1) This is going to be the biggest one, but teams are most often times directed by a single commander/shot-caller. Many times all three teams have one. This person will do everything from alert the team to spawning objectives like mid drones in Secure to directing the team around the map and directing where to attack with macros. The team listens. There's no 3-4 different people all backseat commanding or bickering about it. Nobody whining about a sound macro. At the end of the game, people thank said person for commanding. We see bits and pieces of this on NA, but not as profoundly as on JP games. Because of point #2:
  
• 2) They are very team-oriented. They don't have nearly the same amount of ego as NA has. They do not like sticking-out or causing trouble for others. Everybody queued-up is intending to put in effort. Back when roles used to matter in Frontlines, they would be sure to have a couple healers and a tank in a party. Not stay on 3 BRDs, 3 MCHs, a DRG and maybe a SMN. As I already mentioned, there are no people queuing "just to get tomestones," so the player skill disparity is smaller. If you are identified as being disruptive or trying to hide, you'll probably get vote-kicked.
  
• 3) Due to points 1 and 2, matches are usually always close. None of these largely helpless blowouts we commonly see on NA; which exists because of both general lethargic and and oftentimes directionless teams of the blind leading the blind. They don't have entire games of both losing teams griefing each other; first place is usually getting constantly pincered.

They absolutely can and do run AoE doomstacks; the difference is they might have to work harder and smarter for it than NA's DRK -> profit meta usually works out. On NA, you plunge-in on DRK with a couple AoE jobs supporting and you'll likely kill at least almost a full party-worth of people with minimal issues. On JP, unless you're sneaky about it, you'll probably only kill 2-3 people while maybe being bounced-back by attentive enemies with knock-backs or WAR chaining you and other focused cc. And they sure as heck don't take their ball and go home and mentally check-out after seeing 1 DRK draw-in kill a chunk of their team.

Really, you could almost say a lot of the meta NA premades are just replicating what JP regularly practices. The difference seems to be that usually only enough players on one team cares enough to coordinate, so it always stands out when it happens.

I'm sorry, I am not a game designer, I don't have years to work on this, and I'm not paid to do so either. I'm giving feedback of something that I do consider problematic. I do genuinely hope that you're not here like that other forum poster to dismiss anything that doesn't come with a formal essay about the technicality of solutions to bring up to fix the issue, because that's frankly ridiculous. If anything, beware of people that instantly come up with clear, simple and evident solutions. I am also cynical enough not to expect much of it, but then I'd question why you even bother replying or posting in the first place if you're jaded enough not to care anymore at all.

Okay, but the feedback here is sounding a lot like: "my team is bad, I want a system that dumbs down everything so when we face a team that is good, there's less skill expression for them to outplay us with." Hyperbolic, yes, but after the bare minimum of what I just described on JP server Frontlines, the defining problem is oftentimes just "PEBCAK." Which is why I am trying to explain that the cultural differences in how JP behave in Frontlines as opposed to NA causes this perceived belief that the mode is fundamentally flawed (which it can be in other areas) when it actually boils down to skill differences.

So really, what's your feedback? DRK draw-in is oppressive? There's already threads for that (though I'd like to point-out they haven't changed that aspect about DRK this entire time). There's too many AoEs? Yeah, fair, maybe there is. People die too quickly? Can probably blame the existence of Guard, stacks of self-heals and elixirs on-demand for that. To be honest, any feedback approaching that got drowned-out by the all the talk and jabs at premades, tryhards and veterans. If your feedback isn't just "bitching about premades" then your introductory post itself has a strange way of wording it.

[Valence]

So then you're dissatisfied with the general lack of skill or lack of effort of your average NA player? I mean I get it, it's frustrating to be on that team that just stands there, tunnel-visioning when you see an obvious (oftentimes marked) DRK running-up to plunge into a cluster of unaware people whose only reaction is to run the opposite direction and end up dying instead of reactively Guarding or Purifying and surviving the follow-ups. Something like that is completely possible outside of premades anyway though. All it takes is one DRK with a macro and a team that pays attention and can chew gum and walk. As I already stated, that's always going to be a skill issue. People have the tools to mitigate and lessen the impact of it. The problem is most aren't even aware of them.

No I'm not, and I haven't played on NA since Stormblood either. I'm dissatisfied with the state of the game design of this mode. I don't know how clearer I can make this.
It's not even about DRKs that much anymore, it's a much wider problem.

While it's not plastered all over about how the JP function in Frontlines, a little searching in places like here or even reddit of all places do have some people providing comments or even detailed insight to how their behaviors out on the JP datacenter works. I'd be happy to give you a quick and dirty rundown of what I've gathered/seen regarding how their side treats Frontlines if you're looking for specifics:

• 1) This is going to be the biggest one, but teams are most often times directed by a single commander/shot-caller. Many times all three teams have one. This person will do everything from alert the team to spawning objectives like mid drones in Secure to directing the team around the map and directing where to attack with macros. The team listens. There's no 3-4 different people all backseat commanding or bickering about it. Nobody whining about a sound macro. At the end of the game, people thank said person for commanding. We see bits and pieces of this on NA, but not as profoundly as on JP games. Because of point #2:
  
• 2) They are very team-oriented. They don't have nearly the same amount of ego as NA has. They do not like sticking-out or causing trouble for others. Everybody queued-up is intending to put in effort. Back when roles used to matter in Frontlines, they would be sure to have a couple healers and a tank in a party. Not stay on 3 BRDs, 3 MCHs, a DRG and maybe a SMN. As I already mentioned, there are no people queuing "just to get tomestones," so the player skill disparity is smaller. If you are identified as being disruptive or trying to hide, you'll probably get vote-kicked.
  
• 3) Due to points 1 and 2, matches are usually always close. None of these largely helpless blowouts we commonly see on NA; which exists because of both general lethargic and and oftentimes directionless teams of the blind leading the blind. They don't have entire games of both losing teams griefing each other; first place is usually getting constantly pincered.

They absolutely can and do run AoE doomstacks; the difference is they might have to work harder and smarter for it than NA's DRK -> profit meta usually works out. On NA, you plunge-in on DRK with a couple AoE jobs supporting and you'll likely kill at least almost a full party-worth of people with minimal issues. On JP, unless you're sneaky about it, you'll probably only kill 2-3 people while maybe being bounced-back by attentive enemies with knock-backs or WAR chaining you and other focused cc. And they sure as heck don't take their ball and go home and mentally check-out after seeing 1 DRK draw-in kill a chunk of their team.

Really, you could almost say a lot of the meta NA premades are just replicating what JP regularly practices. The difference seems to be that usually only enough players on one team cares enough to coordinate, so it always stands out when it happens.

1) It's a NA problem. I've rarely seen more than one commander on the EU side, and when they know what they're doing, it works at a macro level. I've commanded quite a bit as well, some teams are very responsive while some aren't. Some are combative, while some aren't, which is something you'll find universally everywhere depending on the quality of the players. Having a disgruntled player about a macro happens, but I think I can count the amount of games where I've seen this on the fingers of my hand. Overall on EU it varies, some periods you'll have commanders with decent to competent directions most of the time, some like currently are mostly silent unless someone decides to start something, and it also depends of the map.

2) I do remember playing on NA when the amount of healers decided who won or lost, and most of the time people swapped jobs to ensure there was at least one per party and often we ended up with two (optimal). There was always times where nobody wanted and the team was doomed, but most of the time I do remember us getting at least a healer, which wasn't optimal, but this goes again against those cultural stereotypes people like to spread around in blanket statements (which i'm also guilty of doing). I also do not see a lot of people trying to hide on EU currently. There is always going to be bad apples here and there but they are horror stories and strawmen in my experience. I do have kicked one or two occasionally that stood on spawn, but then again, if they do this on JP as well, then it's no different from here.

3) Again I don't know how NA has turned those days. What you describe sounds absolutely messy. That's not how EU is however. Skill disparity, perhaps, I don't know.

Okay, but the feedback here is sounding a lot like: "my team is bad, I want a system that dumbs down everything so when we face a team that is good, there's less skill expression for them to outplay us with." Hyperbolic, yes, but after the bare minimum of what I just described on JP server Frontlines, the defining problem is oftentimes just "PEBCAK." Which is why I am trying to explain that the cultural differences in how JP behave in Frontlines as opposed to NA causes this perceived belief that the mode is fundamentally flawed (which it can be in other areas) when it actually boils down to skill differences.

So really, what's your feedback? DRK draw-in is oppressive? There's already threads for that (though I'd like to point-out they haven't changed that aspect about DRK this entire time). There's too many AoEs? Yeah, fair, maybe there is. People die too quickly? Can probably blame the existence of Guard, stacks of self-heals and elixirs on-demand for that. To be honest, any feedback approaching that got drowned-out by the all the talk and jabs at premades, tryhards and veterans. If your feedback isn't just "bitching about premades" then your introductory post itself has a strange way of wording it.

Then re-read my introductory post instead of making strawmen about it.

[Bonoki]

Premades have been an issue since the introduction of Frontlines, and it may have been even more problematic because entire alliances of 8 players could form. However, I believe it truly became a significant problem for the modern Frotnlines with the rise of the zerg meta. In the past, alliances would often split up and tackle different objectives. When Mount Speed upgrades and earning Battle High through assists were introduced into everything, it became more advantageous to remain together as a whole alliance. It also doesn't help that the Zerg meta means that the game plan is consistently the same between all game modes. It's simplistic. New game mode comes out? Forget the rules, travel together, and drop AoEs. On the other spectrum, I've seen people hate on Rival Wings simply because they are lost, and there is no clear indication of "The Alliance is over here right now" for them to identify easily.