Keeping Content Hard and Helping People Learn

[Valence]

In fairness to the "Anyone can clear savage" argument, as someone who started savage in DT and previously "not a savage player", still don't really consider myself a savage player, I'm certainly not really good at it... Savage isn't really harder than normal, even, per se, it's just faster and more aggravating. Every error, however minor, is punished to such a degree that you will probably wipe or fail the final dps check so you wipe anyway and as a healer main I find it particularly frustrating because there's no room for healers in that paradigm but I've ranted about that elsewhere.

At the end of the day; savage is the same DDR as normal with the odd status effect thrown in to irritate you some more, resolves faster and punishes you unreasonably but if you can do normal content reliably then you are capable of doing savage, it's more a question of desire to do so. Which, to be absolutely clear, I will not fault anyone for saying they don't want to.

I have been raiding since SB (and retired this tier), and I do think savage actually exacerbates the scripted part of the DDR quite a lot. In normal modes you have a lot of seemingly random mechanics even though they still follow a script (mechanic A happens, then mechanics B happens, then C, and always in that order, like in savage), because the solutions of said mechanics don't involve a single, unique, unchangeable solution where everybody stands properly in one specific spot else you wipe. In NM players don't have to follow that impetus because while the DDR is scripted at the source, it is a lot less constrained, and therefore scripted, at the resolution end.

If anything, savage isn't necessarily faster than normal modes, especially in DT, or, it really depends, but I wouldn't consider it a defining factor there. If you take a look at the latest parts of say, P4S, P8S, P12S (as opposed to the frantic doorbosses), they're excruciatingly slow in resolving things, because they're more about puzzles and debuffs and it's been like this since forever (Midas/Omega).

[CidHeiral]

This is one of the most destructive attitudes currently blighting the game.

That is a very sad outlook on life.

Let's put aside for one moment that anyone adjudicating the correct attitude other players should have is a self-obsessed narcissist so dripping with hubris it's amazing they haven't drowned.

Let's also suppose for a moment that the claim "you can accomplish anything you put your mind to" is true (spoiler: it's manifestly false).

Alright. I, Mawlzy, have the ability to clear M8S. What does that tell us? The implication is that, because I have this ability, I have a moral obligation to do so? Even if doing so will take... I dunno.. . one hundred hours? Every single second of which I would rather be doing something I actually enjoy.

This is completely preposterous in any game, but far more so in a MMO. For the majority of NA/EU players, doing something they don't enjoy simply because "the game" presents it to them makes as much sense as having a root canal in a healthy tooth.

The reason this ludicrous position keeps being advanced by this noisy, sweaty, judgmental segment of the player base, is that they have an agenda.

It is a transparent attempt to ensure that the content they enjoy continues to be created by SE, despite the fact most players don't like it.

Here's the argument. Everyone can clear (say) savage if they try (false). People lobbying for easier content are just lazy (false). If only everyone could be just like them and embrace this fucking boring DDR slop that has been shoved down our throats for two expansions, everything will return to sunshine and lemoncakes (false).

It makes me puke.

This is a game. Those of us who either currently or formerly have had to work for a living have had plenty of bloody challenge. We don't tell those who like challenging content that they're playing the game wrong and should research the concept of sitting, despite the fact this would make them significantly less obnoxious and improve their lives considerably. Because it's none of our damn business. And yet those of us who prefer to avoid self-imposed obstacles in a video game are constantly told we are lazy, if not braindead.

No. We are not lazy. We have simply made a choice of how we wish to interact with a damn game.

Meanwhile, may I ask why none of these people are Formula 1 world champion? What's wrong with them? Must be incredibly lazy, because anyone could do that if only they'd stick with it and try.

Writing such an unhinged rant over someone being nice and encouraging to someone else really speaks for itself.

Cid's point is that you can do it... if you want to do it!

I appreciate the defense but that's not the type of person you should waste your time trying to reason with. Thank you, though.

[Shurrikhan]

That is a very sad outlook on life.

It's really not. The conclusion it generates is simply that one's time is valuable enough to spend it where one wants to spend it, and not merely in route to whatever arbitrary milestone they could potentially reach. That doesn't make a person lazy, only deliberate.

Hell, most masters reached mastery not just because they didn't give up on what they wanted to focus on but equally because they passed up a whole lot else -- much of it not even reluctantly -- to do so.

I have been raiding since SB (and retired this tier), and I do think savage actually exacerbates the scripted part of the DDR quite a lot. In normal modes you have a lot of seemingly random mechanics even though they still follow a script (mechanic A happens, then mechanics B happens, then C, and always in that order, like in savage), because the solutions of said mechanics don't involve a single, unique, unchangeable solution where everybody stands properly in one specific spot else you wipe. In NM players don't have to follow that impetus because while the DDR is scripted at the source, it is a lot less constrained, and therefore scripted, at the resolution end.

Largely this, yeah. NM tells you where not to be. The coverage of where not to be and tightness between checks in Savage, though, often means that you're basically told where exactly to be.

[Shistar]

I appreciate the defense but that's not the type of person you should waste your time trying to reason with. Thank you, though.

Yeah, I don't think I should have tried that hard when it feels like the point went and keeps going right over everyone's heads! :'D

[Mawlzy]

Writing such an unhinged rant over someone being nice and encouraging to someone else really speaks for itself.

I completely understand why, in a vacuum, my rant appears unhinged.

But you know better than most the broader context of this debate. I am genuinely sufficiently pissed off with the way non-raiders get abused on these boards that I was moved to go off like that.

Cid's point is that you can do it... if you want to do it!

Yes, I understand that. It's one of the most destructive worldviews I know.

[Carighan]

Yes, I understand that. It's one of the most destructive worldviews I know.

Agreed, someone says the same is true in real life, and this "it's your fault if you can't do something, just believe in yourself" is why MLMs persist, the vast majority of grifts work, why people in dire situations feel abandoned and why billionaires get away with hoarding wealth in amounts really nobody ought to have control over. It is that destructive, yes.

But RL rant aside, I would also say that everyone doing all types of content is not good game design, at least for an MMORPG. Players are different. We play the game in different amounts, we're different kinds of players, we have different RL situations and contexts, we would not want to play the game the exact same way as other people. It extrapolates from this that some content will appeal more to player A than B. And it also extrapolates that some players in mixed-content games such as MMORPGs will value more personal challenge or more mechanical complexity while others will value more group challenge or social engagement. Combine the two, and you will want some content that is "too hard" for some groups of players, while you'll also want content that is "too grindy" for other groups, and so on and so on. This just means the game offers something for everyone, basically!

[Mawlzy]

Agreed, someone says the same is true in real life, and this "it's your fault if you can't do something, just believe in yourself" is why MLMs persist, the vast majority of grifts work, why people in dire situations feel abandoned and why billionaires get away with hoarding wealth in amounts really nobody ought to have control over. It is that destructive, yes.

But RL rant aside, I would also say that everyone doing all types of content is not good game design, at least for an MMORPG. Players are different. We play the game in different amounts, we're different kinds of players, we have different RL situations and contexts, we would not want to play the game the exact same way as other people. It extrapolates from this that some content will appeal more to player A than B. And it also extrapolates that some players in mixed-content games such as MMORPGs will value more personal challenge or more mechanical complexity while others will value more group challenge or social engagement. Combine the two, and you will want some content that is "too hard" for some groups of players, while you'll also want content that is "too grindy" for other groups, and so on and so on. This just means the game offers something for everyone, basically!

Yes, completely agree. I think the conflict between players with different interests gets triggered when the studio starts citing "lack of resources" for why a variety of content is not released.

[Valence]

That is a very sad outlook on life.

Your view screams very... american culture to me, not gonna lie. Living to work instead of working to live, etc. Always trying to overdo oneself to reach imaginary goals while missing what actually matters on the way. Very sports talk in a way, which tends to echo very well with a lot of raiders in the game imo.

Apologizing in advance for my own... cultural bias to show.

Yeah, I don't think I should have tried that hard when it feels like the point went and keeps going right over everyone's heads! :'D

I think you unfortunately got caught in a crossfire, for which I somewhat chose to indulge in and I apologize for it.

[Mawlzy]

Your view screams very... american culture to me, not gonna lie. Living to work instead of working to live, etc. Always trying to overdo oneself to reach imaginary goals while missing what actually matters on the way. Very sports talk in a way, which tends to echo very well with a lot of raiders in the game imo.

I've had this discussion in many different contexts and an interesting correlation emerges.

Those who are attracted to "you can do it if you want to do it" (to the point they are shocked anyone would reject the mantra) frequently also believe that Tony Robbins is a brilliant self-help guru who has enriched countless lives.

Those who find the mantra dangerous and destructive tend to regard Tony Robbins as a charlatan who has ruined countless lives.

One funny sidenote is that the kind of "mind-positive advocacy" we're talking about here is the origin of the phrase "toxic positivity," which acknowledges the poison such a worldview injects.

[Shistar]

I think you unfortunately got caught in a crossfire, for which I somewhat chose to indulge in and I apologize for it.

No worries. It was my choice to reply, after all.
I think people who have that view IRL can be harmful if taken to an extreme or ignoring circumstances, but I think it's an admirable attitute to have towards video games because they're made to be beaten. The devs don't go around releasing impossible content for players to bang their heads against and never beat. That is why I agree with Cid's sentiment, simply because everything in this game has been beaten at least once, and if it is factually possible and I want to do it, those are the only two things I need to feel capable of beating it ^^


Obviously, it is not this way IRL. But I also think having to reach so far as to compare yourself to a Formula 1 World Champion to prove your point is... extreme, to say the least.
This is not an IRL forum, it's XIV's forum, and the real fact is that you can clear whatever you put your mind to because it is literally made for you to clear it, and it will be there for you to clear it until the days the servers die. Having an attitude that aligns with the content's nature only makes it easier for you to reach your goal.