Keeping Content Hard and Helping People Learn

[Altina_Orion]

I think part of the problem we're facing is that a single mechanic now dominates fights: responding rapidly to (often obscure) tells and moving to the safe spot.

Anyone playing a game will instinctively try to resolve that mechanic. In that sense they are trying their best. But it's also a mechanic that is difficult for a subset of players (for multiple reasons).

Many "good" players seem genuinely baffled by how "bad" some others are in PvE in this game. I'm convinced it mostly stems from this DDR trend.

You can't teach speed.

And the side effect is a "good" player will see a "bad" one who is barely casting and assume they're just goofing off, whereas in fact that player is completely overwhelmed by simply avoiding the bad.

You'll never learn if you never try, and you have already expressed that you don't care to in other posts many times over. You don't need speed, i promise. I brought my girlfriend into savage and she was AWFUL. like 30% abc, didnt know to do damage as a healer, got hit with basically every mechanic, struggled to learn new mechanics. She has now cleared every single savage since EWs launch.

There has not been a single person who has wanted to learn savage that I have failed to teach. Not a single person. It's simply a matter of wanting to put in the effort. If you don't want to because you don't think you will enjoy it, fine. If you just are ok with being bad, also fine. "It's impossible for me but i never actually put in the time or effort to do it," get over yourself. Just be honest and say you don't care to learn, not that you can't do it.

[CidHeiral]

It's really not. The conclusion it generates is simply that one's time is valuable enough to spend it where one wants to spend it, and not merely in route to whatever arbitrary milestone they could potentially reach. That doesn't make a person lazy, only deliberate.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

Your view screams very... american culture to me, not gonna lie. Living to work instead of working to live, etc. Always trying to overdo oneself to reach imaginary goals while missing what actually matters on the way. Very sports talk in a way, which tends to echo very well with a lot of raiders in the game imo.

I am genuinely mystified at how you could extrapolate all of that from what was basically "good job, believe in your dreams." Maybe in Europe when someone says they want to accomplish something it's common to tell them to go to hell, I wouldn't know, but I try to believe in people more often than not. Obviously this doesn't mean I think they should abandon all free will and throw themselves into the most ball busting challenge imaginable. They can choose to do whatever suits their fancy.

[Mawlzy]

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.




I am genuinely mystified at how you could extrapolate all of that from what was basically "good job, believe in your dreams." Maybe in Europe when someone says they want to accomplish something it's common to tell them to go to hell, I wouldn't know, but I try to believe in people more often than not. Obviously this doesn't mean I think they should abandon all free will and throw themselves into the most ball busting challenge imaginable. They can choose to do whatever suits their fancy.

The three people most associated with that phrase are Martin Luther King Jr., Eleanor Roosevelt, and Walt Disney.

And free will doesn't exist.

[Valence]

You'll never learn if you never try, and you have already expressed that you don't care to in other posts many times over. You don't need speed, i promise. I brought my girlfriend into savage and she was AWFUL. like 30% abc, didnt know to do damage as a healer, got hit with basically every mechanic, struggled to learn new mechanics. She has now cleared every single savage since EWs launch.

There has not been a single person who has wanted to learn savage that I have failed to teach. Not a single person. It's simply a matter of wanting to put in the effort. If you don't want to because you don't think you will enjoy it, fine. If you just are ok with being bad, also fine. "It's impossible for me but i never actually put in the time or effort to do it," get over yourself. Just be honest and say you don't care to learn, not that you can't do it.

What is this obsession people have with having everybody "learning"? People just want to have fun.

The problem isn't that savage or whatever is completely closed to most if not all players. The problem is that it becomes too much of a hassle, effort, or hurdle, for many to continue enjoying the game. There is an insistence in the community that everybody should constantly try to reach for the stars just because it's technically possible, which as an ex veteran raider, I do find pretty wild to be honest. It's not a question of possibilities, it's a question of effort and work, which can be absolutely through the roof for a lot of players. I've never needed to deploy crazy amounts myself (until more recently), but I sure as hell wouldn't have bothered if I sucked at the game. It's like asking a kid that sucks at math to enjoy it and still aim for high studies in science just because with a little (a lot of) work they can. Guess what their answer will be?

They'll do it if they have fun, they won't if they don't. It's not exactly rocket science.

I am genuinely mystified at how you could extrapolate all of that from what was basically "good job, believe in your dreams." Maybe in Europe when someone says they want to accomplish something it's common to tell them to go to hell, I wouldn't know, but I try to believe in people more often than not. Obviously this doesn't mean I think they should abandon all free will and throw themselves into the most ball busting challenge imaginable. They can choose to do whatever suits their fancy.

I mean, you literally said "everybody can achieve anything if they put their mind into it", which you'll excuse me sounded pretty much differently, but if that was just about believing in one's dreams and have confidence, then I guess this is a storm in a kettle then. And it's pretty much besides the point that is whether or not you have such dreams, aspirations and goes to begin with. A lot of people just don't, and assuming that they do, or consistently insisting or telling them that they could, really reminded me of that person I know that was told by americans, verbatim, that if they also know carpentry beyond their gardening little job, then they should start designing garden pagodas and whatnot and mount a business out of it.

[Altina_Orion]

What is this obsession people have with having everybody "learning"? People just want to have fun.

The problem isn't that savage or whatever is completely closed to most if not all players. The problem is that it becomes too much of a hassle, effort, or hurdle, for many to continue enjoying the game. There is an insistence in the community that everybody should constantly try to reach for the stars just because it's technically possible, which as an ex veteran raider, I do find pretty wild to be honest. It's not a question of possibilities, it's a question of effort and work, which can be absolutely through the roof for a lot of players. I've never needed to deploy crazy amounts myself (until more recently), but I sure as hell wouldn't have bothered if I sucked at the game. It's like asking a kid that sucks at math to enjoy it and still aim for high studies in science just because with a little (a lot of) work they can. Guess what their answer will be?

They'll do it if they have fun, they won't if they don't. It's not exactly rocket science.

If you read anything i said, you would know i agree.

If you don't want to because you don't think you will enjoy it, fine. If you just are ok with being bad, also fine.

I simply hate when people say they are incapable without putting in any effort to try.

[Mawlzy]

If you read anything i said, you would know i agree.


I simply hate when people say they are incapable without putting in any effort to try.

If this is in reference to me, may I ask how you know how much effort I have put in?

I guess you know absolutely everything about the abilities of people you have never met, so you must be psychic or something?

Do you suppose I would openly admit to my gaming inadequacies had I not spent hundreds of hours assessing them for myself? Honestly it's slightly embarrassing that a child could complete these hand-eye coordination tasks and I can't, but here we are.

It's completely analogous to the fact that my chess Elo in rapid and blitz were indistinguishable 40 years ago, whereas now the two are offset by 400 points. I process information slower.

One reason I've been brutally honest about my limitations is to show solidarity with and support to others who are abused for being "lazy" and "self-sabotaging" and "defeatist" and a host of other insults. Anyone making such judgments would hang their heads in shame if they had one iota of empathy.

[CidHeiral]

The three people most associated with that phrase are Martin Luther King Jr., Eleanor Roosevelt, and Walt Disney.

And free will doesn't exist.

I mean, you literally said "everybody can achieve anything if they put their mind into it", which you'll excuse me sounded pretty much differently, but if that was just about believing in one's dreams and have confidence, then I guess this is a storm in a kettle then. And it's pretty much besides the point that is whether or not you have such dreams, aspirations and goes to begin with. A lot of people just don't, and assuming that they do, or consistently insisting or telling them that they could, really reminded me of that person I know that was told by americans, verbatim, that if they also know carpentry beyond their gardening little job, then they should start designing garden pagodas and whatnot and mount a business out of it.

Alright, I have no desire to continue talking in circles. Clearly we have a fundamental difference in worldview and that's fine. I came here to leave a nice comment to someone, not debate the nature of human potential. Let's leave it at that.

[Valence]

If you read anything i said, you would know i agree.


I simply hate when people say they are incapable without putting in any effort to try.

Ok then, fair enough. It's very possible that both "sides" are also fighting windmills and have more common ground in reality.

Certain words can be triggering. Or at least, I know some like "putting in effort" and "pulling one's own weight" certainly are for me, I'll freely admit.

[Altina_Orion]

Ok then, fair enough. It's very possible that both "sides" are also fighting windmills and have more common ground in reality.

Certain words can be triggering. Or at least, I know some like "putting in effort" and "pulling one's own weight" certainly are for me, I'll freely admit.

If this is in reference to me, may I ask how you know how much effort I have put in?

Mawlzy has openly stated earlier in this thread that they only run the story dungeons and trials once. Meaning they won't even run normal content more than one time. This is the BARE MINIMUM amount of effort to complete the story. So I understand that that term may be triggering, but it's absolutely apt in this case.

Edit: Correction, it was another thread. Here is the quote

More evidence that the game needs skill sliders or a dual-track.

You don't want to play with the babies. They do not want to play with you.

Incidentally, if one accepts that skill is something one gains through practice (which I do up to a point; there are also massive intrinsic skill variations in a MMO player pool), you might solve your puzzlement by realizing how little instanced PvE one is compelled to do in this game. For those of us who play each MSQ dungeon/trial once, we get hardly any practice at all.

This is also why I would like to see Duty Support extended to all required content. I don't want to be a burden on the players who are good at PvE, yet I am compelled to play those awful 8-man MSQ things with other players.

[Mawlzy]

Mawlzy has openly stated earlier in this thread that they only run the story dungeons and trials once. Meaning they won't even run normal content more than one time. This is the BARE MINIMUM amount of effort to complete the story. So I understand that that term may be triggering, but it's absolutely apt in this case.

And I've have also solo run unsynched a vast number of EXs and other content to farm mounts and to complete bits of story that interested me such as Eden. And I learned the following...

My reactions are not fast enough to avoid getting hit by AoEs and accumulating vuln stacks. Fortunately WAR exists.

Edit for your edit: I was pointing that out in the context of advocating for skill sliders. In practice, I have to do MSQ dungeons more than once to complete the damn things with NPCs. I try not to impose my incompetence on others. I used to also run roulettes to level, but around mid-EW I was simply becoming a burden to others.

I have had plenty of time to assess my abilities. I am uniquely qualified to do so, unlike you. My experience also conforms to those in my FC, which has now been dissolved since everyone has quit.