Keeping Content Hard and Helping People Learn

[Alice_Rivers]

While the advocacy of macros is cool and I was not aware that I could use them to adjust system settings but that's a little beside the point that Shurrikhan got - That being that all the tells should be clearly visible on the default settings. Usually they do this right, per your examples and Jeuno's first fight having a prompt in chat, in Vanaspati "What Is Left/Right?" Then they screwed it up in OC with the berserker where the only tell I could see (sometimes) is where his axe was positioned - The cast bar tells me nothing, the chat box tells me nothing and if I can't see it over people's effects on the default settings, as far as I'm concerned that's the devs mistake.

I'm all for "natural" or "intuitive" tells but if they're likely to be obscured in a default environment then there either needs to be a change to that default environment as Shurrikhan suggested to make those tells show up over the effects and/or there needs to be a clear back-up tell of some kind.

[Mawlzy]

We could say the same about yours, Mawlzy... I don't understand what is wrong with having a positive and go-getter attitude about challenge.

Then I will do my best to explain. Let's first remind ourselves of the statement I find so objectionable:

That's the right attitude to have. You can accomplish anything you put your mind to.

Let's put aside for one moment that anyone adjudicating the correct attitude other players should have is a self-obsessed narcissist so dripping with hubris it's amazing they haven't drowned.

Let's also suppose for a moment that the claim "you can accomplish anything you put your mind to" is true (spoiler: it's manifestly false).

Alright. I, Mawlzy, have the ability to clear M8S. What does that tell us? The implication is that, because I have this ability, I have a moral obligation to do so? Even if doing so will take... I dunno.. . one hundred hours? Every single second of which I would rather be doing something I actually enjoy.

This is completely preposterous in any game, but far more so in a MMO. For the majority of NA/EU players, doing something they don't enjoy simply because "the game" presents it to them makes as much sense as having a root canal in a healthy tooth.

The reason this ludicrous position keeps being advanced by this noisy, sweaty, judgmental segment of the player base, is that they have an agenda.

It is a transparent attempt to ensure that the content they enjoy continues to be created by SE, despite the fact most players don't like it.

Here's the argument. Everyone can clear (say) savage if they try (false). People lobbying for easier content are just lazy (false). If only everyone could be just like them and embrace this fucking boring DDR slop that has been shoved down our throats for two expansions, everything will return to sunshine and lemoncakes (false).

It makes me puke.

This is a game. Those of us who either currently or formerly have had to work for a living have had plenty of bloody challenge. We don't tell those who like challenging content that they're playing the game wrong and should research the concept of sitting, despite the fact this would make them significantly less obnoxious and improve their lives considerably. Because it's none of our damn business. And yet those of us who prefer to avoid self-imposed obstacles in a video game are constantly told we are lazy, if not braindead.

No. We are not lazy. We have simply made a choice of how we wish to interact with a damn game.

Meanwhile, may I ask why none of these people are Formula 1 world champion? What's wrong with them? Must be incredibly lazy, because anyone could do that if only they'd stick with it and try.

[Alice_Rivers]

In fairness to the "Anyone can clear savage" argument, as someone who started savage in DT and previously "not a savage player", still don't really consider myself a savage player, I'm certainly not really good at it... Savage isn't really harder than normal, even, per se, it's just faster and more aggravating. Every error, however minor, is punished to such a degree that you will probably wipe or fail the final dps check so you wipe anyway and as a healer main I find it particularly frustrating because there's no room for healers in that paradigm but I've ranted about that elsewhere.

At the end of the day; savage is the same DDR as normal with the odd status effect thrown in to irritate you some more, resolves faster and punishes you unreasonably but if you can do normal content reliably then you are capable of doing savage, it's more a question of desire to do so. Which, to be absolutely clear, I will not fault anyone for saying they don't want to.

[Mawlzy]

In fairness to the "Anyone can clear savage" argument, as someone who started savage in DT and previously "not a savage player", still don't really consider myself a savage player, I'm certainly not really good at it... Savage isn't really harder than normal, even, per se, it's just faster and more aggravating. Every error, however minor, is punished to such a degree that you will probably wipe or fail the final dps check so you wipe anyway and as a healer main I find it particularly frustrating because there's no room for healers in that paradigm but I've ranted about that elsewhere.

At the end of the day; savage is the same DDR as normal with the odd status effect thrown in to irritate you some more, resolves faster and punishes you unreasonably but if you can do normal content reliably then you are capable of doing savage, it's more a question of desire to do so. Which, to be absolutely clear, I will not fault anyone for saying they don't want to.

It's precisely the speed which walls people, and why many cannot clear normal reliably.

[Shistar]

[...] that's a little beside the point that Shurrikhan got - That being that all the tells should be clearly visible on the default settings. [...]

Yeah, I mean, I already went over the point we can all agree no one in their sane mind can play comfortably on those horrible settings. The default settings are like walking on Legos to me. The good thing is that you can change them - and in my opinion, you really should! - to adjust them to your preferences. I agree it'd be nice and even expected to be able to play the game relatively comfortably (personal taste on how settings and HUD should be arranged aside) but we also need to be a little realistic here. If the settings suck and you can change them, please just go ahead and change them to your tastes. Don't torture yourself like that.

I agree they should change it, but if you give me the choice between having them fix up the default HUD to modern standards or put those people to add more rewards/content/whatever, I truly don't care about the default HUD enough to sacrifice anything for it. No one I know plays on the default HUD except sprouts, and everyone eventually tweaks it to their liking, simply because they can or because they were advised to do so.

[...] Then they screwed it up in OC with the berserker where the only tell I could see (sometimes) is where his axe was positioned - The cast bar tells me nothing, the chat box tells me nothing and if I can't see it over people's effects on the default settings, as far as I'm concerned that's the devs mistake.

I'm all for "natural" or "intuitive" tells but if they're likely to be obscured in a default environment then there either needs to be a change to that default environment as Shurrikhan suggested to make those tells show up over the effects and/or there needs to be a clear back-up tell of some kind.

A tip for the berserker: Look for the cape instead of the axe. His pose is confusing on purpose, I think, but his cape is huge, visible and actively moving so it's easy to catch. When in doubt, just follow the mob of people, although that shouldn't be a valid cue! lol
Sometimes, you're not looking for the safe spot, you're looking for where the attack will hit and just stand opposite of it. Some mechs will rely on you to be flexible enough to look for one or the other, and adjust yourself accordingly. And you should seriously consider limiting the VFX for others when doing large-scale content, you're just shooting yourself in the foot here.

To me there's always at least one clear cue and a handful of confusing/easter egg-y ones. Like, I don't go around comparing the lamp shapes in Nald'Thal to find out if it's a donut or a circle aoe, I just look at the background color/who is acting as the "head" currently and call it a day, but it's neat that it's an added cue for those who are colorblind and cannot exactly tell the background color/boss head or something.

Let's put aside for one moment that anyone adjudicating the correct attitude other players should have is a self-obsessed narcissist so dripping with hubris it's amazing they haven't drowned. [...]

I think you're taking things way too literally, and it bad faith besides. Cid was just praising their attitude while agreeing on it, which leads to my next point:

[...] Let's also suppose for a moment that the claim "you can accomplish anything you put your mind to" is true (spoiler: it's manifestly false). Alright. I, Mawlzy, have the ability to clear M8S. What does that tell us? The implication is that, because I have this ability, I have a moral obligation to do so? Even if doing so will take... I dunno.. . one hundred hours? Every single second of which I would rather be doing something I actually enjoy.

When did anyone say you have to do it? No one ever said that, or pushed their idea of the ideal attitute on you, specifically, and that is what I take issue with. We can disagree just fine, Mawlzy, but me thinking that you can absolutely clear M8S does not mean I am expecting you to parse a 100 or something ridiculous. What we are saying is, if there is something you want and you are willing to do what it takes to make it work (see: actually being motivated to do it, asking for help if that is what you need, taking the necessary steps to make it easier on yourself, relying on your team, etc. each case is different) but no one is saying you should do something you don't wanna do. Could I clear UCOB 16 times to get every single weapon if I felt like it? Yes! Do I want to do it? I don't know what would possess me to bother with that! The weapons are not my taste and it'd feel like a waste of my time I could spend on something I do want to do, but that doesn't stop me from doing it. Cid's point is that you can do it... if you want to do it! If you don't want to, that's perfectly fine, but I think that part of the comment that bothers you so much and that, in my opinion, you took the wrong way, is that you are capable. You are not useless, or too stupid, or anything that would prevent you from getting anything you wish for in the game. You just need to meet the right conditions (how fair, easy or unlikeable they may be is another topic, but I can tell you from personal experience that the only way you will never get anything done is if you don't even think yourself capable of it)


This is off-topic, but I think you would enjoy watching speedruns and challenge runs. I think it'd open your mind to what possibilities entail, and how far people are willing to go when theywant to do something. For entertainment value, of course lol I don't go around trying to pull all of that myself, but I love watching it and has changed my outlook on gaming for the better! Some people are truly insane, and I love them for it.

[...] The reason this ludicrous position keeps being advanced by this noisy, sweaty, judgmental segment of the player base, is that they have an agenda. It is a transparent attempt to ensure that the content they enjoy continues to be created by SE, despite the fact most players don't like it. [...]

Genuinely have no idea where this came from. Your entire response is a series of curveballs to me, but this one takes the cake!
I feel like you're bringing points from other threads into a fairly innocent praise towards a player who was humble enough to showcase their weaknesses in a public forum, and then come back to share a big achievement (which it is). I think it is worthy of praise. There was literally zero judgement in Cid's comment.

[...] People lobbying for easier content are just lazy (false). If only everyone could be just like them and embrace this fucking boring DDR slop that has been shoved down our throats for two expansions, everything will return to sunshine and lemoncakes (false).

I agree with you on both accounts. In order:
1. I don't think everyone is lazy. Some people genuinely struggle with the content and that's fine, you are not lesser than the rest for it, because we all struggle at something that is second-nature to someone else. What I'm not cool with is this whole victim attitude some people have about it, acting like they're absolutely helpless in the face of a challenge when they have all the tools to succeed at their disposal. I think it's an attitude issue, being unable to see that you are capable and you just need to meet the requirements that you need to make it happen, like everyone else here.
2. Yeah, also false, but the reality is that's how the game is right now... if you want to participate in any PvE content, that is most likely what you will find nowadays, it is simply what we've got, like it or not. Adapting to it and being able to play it when you must interact with it to continue (MSQ) is benefitial to you first and foremost. If you hate it so much, it is better for your mental wellbeing to search for something that has what bits you enjoy of XIV without what makes you wanna puke. People don't want you to be just like them and play even if you (general you) don't like it, but when some players come, honestly, bitching that the game is not what they want or that it won't give them special treatment, refuse to listen to all reason or advice and somehow expect the game to turn into something completely different overnight, it sure makes the rest of us scratch our heads lol

[...] This is a game. [...] And yet those of us who prefer to avoid self-imposed obstacles in a video game are constantly told we are lazy, if not braindead. No. We are not lazy. We have simply made a choice of how we wish to interact with a damn game.

You're right, this is a game, and you can choose how and when you engage with it. But you're having an issue with someone who wasn't even talking to you in the first place, and who never even remotely implied what you're pissed about in the message you quoted. It really makes you look like you're just looking for reasons to get upset and push your opinion where it was not asked for.
I'm not saying this game is at the peak of PvE combat, far from it, but if you (again, general you) don't like the biggest part of the game and don't wanna play it or want to ignore the majority of its content, then don't be surprised when your unpopular demands are met with the expected disagreement and bad faith you put out. You complain other players treat those who advocate for easier content as lazy, but you do the same by grouping them all up as sweaty, mean-spirited haters of accesibility when that is not the case at all. I am not surprised people don't want to argue in good faith when you say these things.

[Alice_Rivers]

It's precisely the speed which walls people, and why many cannot clear normal reliably.

I don't really mind the speed in normal, you've got easily five seconds from the cue showing to the snapshot happening, that should be more than enough time for the average player to process that there's a mechanic and where the safe spot is. Most will tell you "if you have to choose between dps and the mechanic, do the mechanic first, dps after" that seems reasonable to me. For me extreme is about the right balance of speed, complexity and punishment, a good healer can save most extreme runs which makes it miles better than savage and you can still sacrifice damage for mechanics without failing at enrage (unless your party is really low dps).

[Carin-Eri]

T

Alright. I, Mawlzy, have the ability to clear M8S. What does that tell us?

Honestly? I don't think clearing the more difficult content truly tells anyone anything about the player.

I mean, I've cleared Recollection Ex. However, I'm still pretty terrible at any of the new content played at Normal level and having QueensKnight weapons doesn't change that fact.

And have seen players with weapons from 'Futures Rewritten' get repeatedly killed in the likes of M4N and M7N.

[Mawlzy]

snip...

Particularly in the current environment, in which many players are unhappy with and unsubscribing from the game, basically any interaction is carrying baggage from other threads. There we agree.

You make a common error in suggesting PvE is the majority of the content in FFXIV.

People will continue to complain about PvE in FFXIV partly because it has changed. In DT in particular it is much faster than it used to be. That's why there are so many threads on the topic.

This is a major reason why I have unsubscribed. The only "demands" (requests, surely?) I have made in terms of PvE is that all players should be catered to, even if this reduces to story mode dungeons for MSQ.

The fact you conclude the central problem is an "attitude issue" means I have nothing else to say to you.

[Valence]

This is one of the most destructive attitudes currently blighting the game.

Or real life tbh.

[Mawlzy]

Or real life tbh.

Honestly, more important in real life, particularly when coupled to nonsense such as "the law of attraction" and other aspirational mumbo jumbo.

And of course, a tool by which the 1% justify massive disparities in wealth distribution; because everyone could be just like them if they just adopted a positive attitude and tried harder.