Job feedback [pre-8.0 megathread]

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]I remember reading those same remarks, and they were in the context of (paraphrasing), "we really, really don't want to make healers feel like they have to do damage and distract them from doing their job," so it's a mystery to me why anyone expected more than what we got — of course the new healer wasn't going to unduly stress the hEaLeRs sHoUlD OnLy hEaL crowd[...]

Now that you mention it, I hate to admit that you're right. My day is ruined ;_;

The 'augment' part was what mostly interests me back then. But alas...

[Raraka]

I like PLD right now and would like to continue playing it this way

With the Dawntrail changes they did to other tanks I have been enjoying PLD and DRK the most, i absolutely love current PLD

And its funny because GNB was my favorite tank in EW and now its my least liked one

[Kozh]

No, SE did actually check both those bullet points: Kardia is literally "heals by attacking." Eukrasia is literally "augment its own capabilities."

I remember reading those same remarks, and they were in the context of (paraphrasing), "we really, really don't want to make healers feel like they have to do damage and distract them from doing their job," so it's a mystery to me why anyone expected more than what we got — of course the new healer wasn't going to unduly stress the hEaLeRs sHoUlD OnLy hEaL crowd.

I'm actually more disappointed in the "augment" aspect. Recitation, Deployment Tactics, and Emergency Tactics are a more interesting system than Eukrasia.

Ah yes the corporate/PR's "technically correct" move. My fault for expecting anything more than the bottom of the barrel, I still believed in FF14 back then.

[Asari5]

Ah yes the corporate/PR's "technically correct" move. My fault for expecting anything more than the bottom of the barrel, I still believed in FF14 back then.

reminds me of what they said about cosmic explorstion 'you are able to do this content in a group'
which isnt wrong since you can do it while you're in a group. but i expected group content.

[jimmybe29]

I miss SHB Summoner, it was so fun and complete imo, I still feel DoTs on jobs are fun because using it on multiple targets is always satisfying.

[ty_taurus]

As far as my memory recalled, he sold SGE as "The healer that heals by attacking" & "-able to augment its own capabilities" rather than -the- DPS healer but I could be misremembering at this point or simply paraphrasing. But assuming that was what he said, they have failed to checkmark their own bullet points regardless.

By its core design - like ASkellington mentioned; we're going to do both. They need to acknowledge this and actually give more than just cookie crumbs to their damage options.

I am bias, so feel free to fact check my statements and/or take my perspective with a grain of salt, but during several interviews with Yoshi P about Sage before Endwalker, he stated specifically that Sage was designed based on feedback received in Shadowbringers that some players wanted more DPS on healers. I’ll give you an example: Zelpa’s Q&A with Yoshi P.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I am bias, so feel free to fact check my statements and/or take my perspective with a grain of salt, but during several interviews with Yoshi P about Sage before Endwalker, he stated specifically that Sage was designed based on feedback received in Shadowbringers that some players wanted more DPS on healers. I’ll give you an example: Zelpa’s Q&A with Yoshi P.

I too am biased, at least when I wrote that reply, so I don't think I'm in right place to fact check that statement. Nevertheless, I think the one point we both agreed is having more in-depth options to fill our time when we're not healing are something to be sought for - sorely that is.

I personally don't quite care who gets what at this point. I just want four of them to feel different. My proposal in the past has been pretty low of a bar to clear: rollback to ShB (because that's when I started and 3 healers still had some distinct difference that make me notice), then start from there. Ideally it would be "rollback to StB, keep ShB QoLs, then start from there" sprinkled with plethora other suggested changes that we often saw in healer subforum. But apparently that's been a tough ask for this multi-billion dollar company...

One day maybe I'll get slapped with the "Please understand the cost..."-reasoning. I can feel it...

[ty_taurus]

No, SE did actually check both those bullet points: Kardia is literally "heals by attacking." Eukrasia is literally "augment its own capabilities."

I remember reading those same remarks, and they were in the context of (paraphrasing), "we really, really don't want to make healers feel like they have to do damage and distract them from doing their job," so it's a mystery to me why anyone expected more than what we got — of course the new healer wasn't going to unduly stress the hEaLeRs sHoUlD OnLy hEaL crowd.

I'm actually more disappointed in the "augment" aspect. Recitation, Deployment Tactics, and Emergency Tactics are a more interesting system than Eukrasia.

To me, that’s textbook malicious compliance. “We said you healed by attacking. We didn’t say that would have any impact on your play style. What are you complaining about?” Obviously they wouldn’t talk like that, but that’s how it feels. The point is I don’t think it’s possible to craft a more passive, unimpactful system for a “heal by attacking” play style. Doing the literal barest minimum possible and stapling Aetherflow onto Sage is not a vibe. And the thing is, if they don’t want a DPS healer, no one forced them to market Sage as one. They could’ve done something else as disconnected from DPS thematically as possible, yet they made Sage and tried to pass it off as a response to people asking for DPS on healers. So at this point, I want commitment to the promise. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

[Mikey_R]

I am bias, so feel free to fact check my statements and/or take my perspective with a grain of salt, but during several interviews with Yoshi P about Sage before Endwalker, he stated specifically that Sage was designed based on feedback received in Shadowbringers that some players wanted more DPS on healers. I’ll give you an example: Zelpa’s Q&A with Yoshi P.

But what does 'more DPS' actually mean? It isn't going to do more damage than other healers, so it just means more DPS options than other healers, which it did get. No other healer has a Phlegma equivalent, or a Toxicon equivalent, or even a Pneuma equivalent. With DT it then got Psyche, the closest thing to this is Assize and Eukrasian Dyskrasia, the only healer with an on demand AoE DoT.

I've said it once and I will say it again, people are to focused on looking at what makes jobs the same, they forget to look at what makes jobs different. Yes, Sage and Scholar have very similar healing kits, but they are not the same when it comes to the DPS side. If these differences are where you would like a job to go, then you can use these examples as something to level off of when making suggestions. For example, acknowledging Sage has more DPS options, saying, yes SE, I want Sage to move more in this direction, but I also want to leverage the other unique thing about Sage, Eukrasia. How about a Eukrasian Phlegma that does an AoE heal (maybe at the cost of some potency), or make it so that the shields reflect some damage back (likely a fixed potency like Vengeance/Damnation), to try and encourage the use of them, or to make them closer to DPS neutral. Then, in situations where there is multiple hits going out, it might be worth it to use the shield as you get more DPS from the reflected damage out of it.

This can apply to every job, though you might need to go back a bit to previous iterations to get some design ideas, like Dark Arts.

As for the topic itself, first, I would take away the 2 minute meta, ie, remove all temporary raid buffs. Off the back of that, we can then design jobs with varying burst windows and damage profiles to make them feel more unique. One idea that I have had for a while is Monk. Monk would have no damage% increase burst windows on fixed timers, ie. Brotherhood and Riddle of Fire get their damage increases removed and instead, their 'burst' is designed to be short, but strong. This is done via Perfect Balance. Those 4 GCDs (3 under PB and then Masterful Blitz) would be stronger, but since there is no window to use them and PB has a stacking cooldown, you are much more flexible in when you use it (More details here).

[ty_taurus]

But what does \\'more DPS\\' actually mean? It isn\\'t going to do more damage than other healers, so it just means more DPS options than other healers, which it did get. No other healer has a Phlegma equivalent, or a Toxicon equivalent, or even a Pneuma equivalent. With DT it then got Psyche, the closest thing to this is Assize and Eukrasian Dyskrasia, the only healer with an on demand AoE DoT.

No Phlegma equivalent? White Mage has Assize and Misery. Scholar has Energy Drain and Ruin II which is significantly more versatile than Toxikon as well. Astrologian had an entire damage buffing system which has since been diminished in scale, but is still at least partially present. Also Lord of Crowns. And even if that wasn’t the case, the issue that we have been asking for is gameplay that isn’t almost entirely “spam glare/broil/malefic.”

“Spam Dosis, except 1 less time per 40 seconds” was not the answer. It’s not about doing more damage, it’s about having a job that actually has gameplay and doesn’t feel like a level 1 job for the majority of most encounters.