Thread: 8.0 DPS Job Rework Workshop/Megathread. Goals, Design Principles, and Mock-Ups.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

'Raid buffs'

Yes, there is a deeper conversation that can be had around raid buffs and their effects, I mainly wanted to set the environment that my Monk idea was based around and give a quick explanation as to why.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Aye, party-scaled potency. Though, this ultimately just punishes you for having fewer than 8 people...

How many people choose not to take Monk or Reaper into Criterion Savage Dungeons or say they are an issue? I do not know but I haven't heard of it being a major concern (though I could be wrong). Any other 4 man content this shouldn't be a concern.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Don't we have that through the flexibility of Reply of Wind and, to a lesser extent, Reply of Fire (best used right after Opo-opo)? Or, if allowing for overcap, through Meditation.

Heck, at the original 320 potency on TFC (528 effective potency), Meditation was doing 264 ppgcd while the likes of Piercing Talon was doing 132 and Throwing Dagger at 110, iirc. It was by far the strongest ranged (as in, not needing to be in melee) attack in the game with the added benefit of not even needing a target and therefore usable during boss jumps.
(The problem was simply the same Shoha / Meditate later faced. Overcap from in-combat RNG reducing the number of uses available during downtime.)

Admittedly, Fire was the one I struggled with in making a change that fit in what I wanted to achieve. I should be clear though, I was meant to say it was a ranged attack with a cooldown, so it cannot be spammed. I think that alone potentially changes the dynamic involved as you cannot just sit at range and spam the attack out, like you can with Piercing Talon etc. Meditation would then be similar to Viper's Writhing Snap, with the benefit that you can still Meditate even if the boss is untargetable.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why not just let it go a step further with attack and movement speed?

Because increasing GCD speed just another way of increasing damage gains by making your attacks come out faster. It's the same dynamic as early ShB, what is better GL3 and FoF or GL4 with FoW.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Just a spitball, but... Let's say GL were returned (though maybe taking just 3-4 GCDs to ramp up instead of 7-9) and gave an effect or effect-set for each element: Damage from Fire, Attack Speed and Movement Speed from Wind, and Mitigation and Attack Power from damage personally nullified from Earth, up to 20% each (25% for the chosen one)?

:: To reduce the opportunity cost this would otherwise cost you from using Tornado Kick, those stances then might cause you to always retain the whole of that element's effect (e.g., in Fists of Wind, you'd rank up through +0/7/14/20% damage and mitigation, but always have +25% haste) or, say, gain half its maximum from the start (+13/17/21/25% haste).

Which you could do, but you create a situation, especially between FoF and FoW that will come out on top as mathematically better. So whilst it is a nice idea, I don't see it really working out.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Not direct feedback, but just some probes:

How would you feel if Blitz was just... an MP spender, that spent a % of remaining MP (with a certain minimum cost) for accordant damage that you could use whenever?

Then Monk would need a way to build up MP and it would effectively be a build and spend when full, unless damage is linearly proportional to the MP spent so that it doesn't matter. However, the bigger thing here is that by de-coupling it from Perfect Balance, you turn it into just another attack with no real meaning behind it.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Using the GL example from before... what if Riddle of Earth, Riddle of Wind, and Riddle of Fire were consolidated into one skill dependent on present stance. Each would double the effect of the chosen Fists of ~~ stance and shuffled a rank each of the other stances (Fire would be 35%/10%/10%, each with an added twist (e.g., Riddle of Fire could charge up its Chakra attacks, Riddle of Wind could create a wind-clone that would store your next action and allow you to later copy it as an oGCD, and Riddle of Earth would generate Attack Power based on damage nullified). If there were some way to entice rotation of at least Wind and Fire in flexibly-timed windows by which one can capitalize on or set up for the other, would that kind of Riddle of ~~ finally allow a RoF to be more appealing even as a %damage skill? Would that allow for, to your mind, a more interesting RoW?

The problem is, you are still creating windows where it is beneficial to put Perfect Balance, whether it is under FoF or FoW. Even if Perfect Balance lined up so that you were forced to use one in the 'less desirable' fist, you would still aim to put as many in the favourable one as possible. This is reminiscent of how it currently is, where you want to put 2 PBs inside the even RoF and keep 1 PB in the odd RoF. It goes against the entire framework of what I wanted to achieve with Monk.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The latter sounds like it'd feel rather degenerative if in a context where Twin Snakes and Demolish durations were returned.

By this point, I was just spit balling ideas to try and make the PB window more interesting so that it wasn't just a simple all Opo, or all different. The Dancer-esque system would work with Fury, but another system might work better with the buffs. At this point, the post was turning into idle musings.