The new player experience and how FFXIV fails as an MMO.

[Gyson]

Is anyone asking for that? The issue keeps getting framed as a binary one where the story has to overshadow every other part of the game or it has to be irrelevant. Those are only the most extreme options. The length of the story stops having downsides when it stops interfering with the MMO side of the game. I also don't see any benefit to making the story required when it comes to player interest. If anything, letting the player choose when to engage with the story should lead to the least burnout because there are no competing goals like trying to catch up with friends.

Going back and changing the structure of the game from ARR to DT would be a lot of work so there might not be many feasible ways to make changes there, but the future is an open book and I think the game could benefit a lot from allowing more player freedom and interaction.

But you know the formula - the introduction of new (especially leveling dungeons) are usually woven into the story, which provides players with the option of running them with NPCs who are part of the story (and a reason for those NPCs to be there). What you're essentially asking for is to have that content separated from the story, which in turn will make the experience worse for those players who do enjoy the story. Or you're asking the developers to create twice as many dungeons so players can level and gear up via the story route or a non-story route, and I doubt that is feasible under their current development schedule given that they already seem to be struggling with their pace.

A story-skip option is available for those who want to catch up to the current expansion, and while I would never use one it seems like the entire effort to wrap a bow on the previous 10-year story was at least in part to provide potential players with a new starting point to jump to. And if they do and discover they actually like the current story they can always tackle the previous expansions at their leisure through the New Game Plus feature. It's not the perfect way to digest an MMO, but it's a pretty decent option, and one that is available *right now* without shaking up the formula in unwanted ways for long-time players who have actually enjoyed the design from the last ten years.

Between Endwalker closing off the last ten years, Dawntrail starting a new adventure, the New Game Plus feature and the story skip option all being available now, there has never been a better time to bring new friends into the game who have been holding back because they didn't want to progress through multiple expansions to reach the end-game. Can we at least agree on that?

[Altina_Orion]

But you know the formula - the introduction of new (especially leveling dungeons) are usually woven into the story, which provides players with the option of running them with NPCs who are part of the story (and a reason for those NPCs to be there). What you're essentially asking for is to have that content separated from the story, which in turn will make the experience worse for those players who do enjoy the story. Or you're asking the developers to create twice as many dungeons so players can level and gear up via the story route or a non-story route, and I doubt that is feasible under their current development schedule given that they already seem to be struggling with their pace.

A story-skip option is available for those who want to catch up to the current expansion, and while I would never use one it seems like the entire effort to wrap a bow on the previous 10-year story was at least in part to provide potential players with a new starting point to jump to. And if they do and discover they actually like the current story they can always tackle the previous expansions at their leisure through the New Game Plus feature. It's not the perfect way to digest an MMO, but it's a pretty decent option, and one that is available *right now* without shaking up the formula in unwanted ways for long-time players who have actually enjoyed the design from the last ten years.

Between Endwalker closing off the last ten years, Dawntrail starting a new adventure, the New Game Plus feature and the story skip option all being available now, there has never been a better time to bring new friends into the game who have been holding back because they didn't want to progress through multiple expansions to reach the end-game. Can we at least agree on that?

Story skip is really a shitty solution to bring up, "Yeah buy the game for $60 or whatever than spend $15 on a sub then spend another $40 on a story skip and we can play together! Or grind out 500 hours of story!"

[Gyson]

Story skip is really a shitty solution to bring up, "Yeah buy the game for $60 or whatever than spend $15 on a sub then spend another $40 on a story skip and we can play together! Or grind out 500 hours of story!"

I understand your point, but at the same time that's a bit of an exaggeration. The game can be purchased for $40, a sub is $13, and the story skip is $25. So that $115 price tag you're suggesting is actually $78. And it's not just a multi-expansion story skip - it levels a character's class to 90, provides them with a full set of level 90 gear, a half a million in gil, and saves them however many months of subscription cost it would normally take to progress through A Realm Reborn and four additional expansions. If it even saves you just two months of subscription time then it's paid for itself. That is not that horrible of an ask, especially compared to what $25 normally gets you in most modern online game's cash shops.

I'm not wild about the term "grind" in the context you're using it in, because "grinding out 500 hours of story" is.. you know, playing a Final Fantasy themed game. But if people want to skip the main draw of a Final Fantasy game then at least an option exists.

I don't know, if I wanted a specific friend/sibling to play this game with me, but they didn't want to have to play through 500 (or however many) hours of content alone just to catch up, I'd just offer to play through the game with them (the New Game Plus option provides long-time players with the means to do this alongside new players). As I mentioned earlier, I went through this entire game with friends - we voice the unspoken dialogues to each other and all that other embarrassing nonsense to make everything more entertaining and a shared experience. Your newly introduced friends don't have to play through multiple expansions alone without you, and you get the benefit of a front-row seat to all their reactions as the story unfolds.

[Absurdity]

I understand your point, but at the same time that's a bit of an exaggeration. The game can be purchased for $40, a sub is $13, and the story skip is $25. So that $115 price tag you're suggesting is actually $78.

Since we are talking about playing with friends at the endgame, a new player would have to buy the complete edition which does cost you $60.

[Gyson]

Since we are talking about playing with friends at the endgame, a new player would have to buy the complete edition which does cost you $60.

Whoops, you are correct. So it would be $60 for the game, $25 for the story skip/character boost, and $13 for a sub once your included 30 days are over. That's a $94 total. But, again, if the story skip saves you just two months of subscription time then it's paid for itself.

[PyurBlue]

But you know the formula - the introduction of new (especially leveling dungeons) are usually woven into the story, which provides players with the option of running them with NPCs who are part of the story (and a reason for those NPCs to be there). What you're essentially asking for is to have that content separated from the story, which in turn will make the experience worse for those players who do enjoy the story. Or you're asking the developers to create twice as many dungeons so players can level and gear up via the story route or a non-story route, and I doubt that is feasible under their current development schedule given that they already seem to be struggling with their pace.

There are already side quests with their own stories that are separated enough from the MSQ to be completely optional. Non MSQ dungeons could function in a way that is similar where they have a story but it's not tied to the main narrative. As optional content there would be less need to design them around NPC's but if that was still deemed necessary, pick someone besides the scions (until the player reaches a point in the MSQ where their appearance makes sense).

This would require more dungeons to be made like you point out, though it's not clear to me if this is asking too much of SE. It's not unreasonable to request improvements and I wouldn't mind if they had to divert some resources to build some new ideas that break away from their very predictable formula.

A story-skip option is available for those who want to catch up to the current expansion, and while I would never use one it seems like the entire effort to wrap a bow on the previous 10-year story was at least in part to provide potential players with a new starting point to jump to. And if they do and discover they actually like the current story they can always tackle the previous expansions at their leisure through the New Game Plus feature. It's not the perfect way to digest an MMO, but it's a pretty decent option, and one that is available *right now* without shaking up the formula in unwanted ways for long-time players who have actually enjoyed the design from the last ten years.

Having to pay more just to make the game more accessible sounds backwards to me. I also wouldn't consider making MSQ optional to be shaking things up any more than a story-skip would. The MSQ is will still be there, and it could even benefit because it would no longer need to accommodate players that want to participate and those that want to get to other content - yes there is a story skip but not everyone is going to take it, the skip wasn't enough to keep parts of the MSQ from being trimmed or adjusted in the past. The optional non MSQ dungeons would exist for everyone and could even be used to create alternative methods for completing the MSQ. What if at some point you need drop X and you can choose to search for it in MSQ dungeon Y or optional dungeon Z?

Between Endwalker closing off the last ten years, Dawntrail starting a new adventure, the New Game Plus feature and the story skip option all being available now, there has never been a better time to bring new friends into the game who have been holding back because they didn't want to progress through multiple expansions to reach the end-game. Can we at least agree on that?

It's a mixed bag. NG+ was a glaring omission for what is supposed to a story focused game. The story-skip is one way to get around having to go through the story before doing other content, but why pay to solve a problem that the devs created and also encourage them to keep on the same path? Not everyone is going to want to do that and I feel like that is very understandable. A more open ended way to play the game isn't just a new player issue anyway, it's something that can improve the experience for all players. I can only speak for myself, but SE's very tight control over MSQ progression doesn't enhance the story or the gameplay for me.

Why no create an accelerated path that perhaps catches you up to DT or whatever the current expansion is but gives the option to take the slow-msq route?

Some kind of catch up path would make a lot of sense and help prevent players from being lost by skipping the story entirely. It would also be a good alternative for alt characters.