The new player experience and how FFXIV fails as an MMO.

[Volgia]

I see that as two irreconcilable but legitimate playstyles, hence why I advocate a dual-track approach. Learning and implementing a rigid rotation is, for many, extremely boring.

It's the case in any MMO I can think of that those who want to push their limits and engage in high-end PvE will naturally gravitate towards external sources. Like even in CCGs it's rare for the game to tell you how to optimize your deck, so everyone goes to Icy Veins.

I wish this game had playstyles. What I do mean is that how you play the game in normal mode should somewhat translate in how you play in Extremes+, but it doesn't and there are no in-game tools for you to get there, so from a newbie perspective it feels extremely hostile to get into that type of content.

[Mawlzy]

Yeah, I agree but I don't think that's a good approach to game design. The game has two distinctly separate groups of players. Group 1, who are so incompetent that they don't even know what they don't know, and group 2, who know how the game works and feel like they don't get to play the game when they engage with content that's designed for group 1.

IMO the game should ask more of players and do more to teach them how to do what it's asking of them. It would create a more fun and engaging experience for everyone.

I think "incompetent" misses the point. In NA/EU I suspect Group 1 is the majority, and I'd suggest their ignorance of one facet of the game (PvE) is a legitimate choice.

Maybe I'm just projecting, but I think a large chunk of Group 1 does know that they can do more damage in a dungeon if they studied one of Wesk's or Caetsu's guides and memorized the optimal rotations. But why on earth would they? PvE does not interest everyone, particularly when it approaches rotation optimization. This is particularly true in FFXIV because the PvE is just plain bad.

I'd agree with you that this is a choice on SE's part. What the game "teaches" you in MSQ dungeons is that if you run out of the bad fast enough and hit the flashy buttons occasionally, everything will work out. Why do you suppose SE has made that choice? It's because they recognize that those interested in optimization are a minority. If this were not the case and the intent, would we not have in-game damage meters? The game is like this because the only optimization SE cares about is sub-count.

As to creating a "more fun and engaging experience," manifestly no. People are leaving because DT has raised MSQ dungeon difficulty to a point that a part of Group 1 doesn't want to deal with.

I wish this game had playstyles. What I do mean is that how you play the game in normal mode should somewhat translate in how you play in Extremes+, but it doesn't and there are no in-game tools for you to get there, so from a newbie perspective it feels extremely hostile to get into that type of content.

An oft-repeated myth IMO. Sure there is hostility from raiders as is so evident on these boards, but the content itself doesn't put up a wall of hostility. The barrier is one of tedium. Or more generously, it's just a choice.

[Volgia]

An oft-repeated myth IMO. Sure there is hostility from raiders as is so evident on these boards, but the content itself doesn't put up a wall of hostility. The barrier is one of tedium. Or more generously, it's just a choice.

I mean there is the tedium if you don't like it, but there is also the fact that it kind of neuters newbies from liking it because it gets inaccessible. CBU3 dumbed down jobs in order to make it more accessible to people to go do Extremes+. but they don't understand that the accessibility wasn't on job complexities but on how they have designed their content.

Or they just straight up lied, and dumbed down the jobs because it was easier to design them that way.

[Mawlzy]

I mean there is the tedium if you don't like it, but there is also the fact that it kind of neuters newbies from liking it because it gets inaccessible. CBU3 dumbed down jobs in order to make it more accessible to people to go do Extremes+. but they don't understand that the accessibility wasn't on job complexities but on how they have designed their content.

Or they just straight up lied, and dumbed down the jobs because it was easier to design them that way.

100% agree on that.

[BigCheez]

I think "incompetent" misses the point. In NA/EU I suspect Group 1 is the majority, and I'd suggest their ignorance of one facet of the game (PvE) is a legitimate choice.

Maybe I'm just projecting, but I think a large chunk of Group 1 does know that they can do more damage in a dungeon if they studied one of Wesk's or Caetsu's guides and memorized the optimal rotations. But why on earth would they? PvE does not interest everyone, particularly when it approaches rotation optimization. This is particularly true in FFXIV because the PvE is just plain bad.

I'd agree with you that this is a choice on SE's part. What the game "teaches" you in MSQ dungeons is that if you run out of the bad fast enough and hit the flashy buttons occasionally, everything will work out. Why do you suppose SE has made that choice? It's because they recognize that those interested in optimization are a minority. If this were not the case and the intent, would we not have in-game damage meters? The game is like this because the only optimization SE cares about is sub-count.

As to creating a "more fun and engaging experience," manifestly no. People are leaving because DT has raised MSQ dungeon difficulty to a point that a part of Group 1 doesn't want to deal with.



An oft-repeated myth IMO. Sure there is hostility from raiders as is so evident on these boards, but the content itself doesn't put up a wall of hostility. The barrier is one of tedium. Or more generously, it's just a choice.

I'm not talking about optimisation. I'm talking about the basics. I don't think the game should allow people to hit level 100 as a WHM with only glare and cure 1 on their hotbars.

In what sense do you find Dawntrail dungeons harder than previous expansions? I think most of the complaints on Dt release were coming from newer players who started during Endwalker and hadn't played a dungeon without being ilvl synced before. Some of the bosses one or two overlapping mechanics but that's fairly normal. Overall I think the dungeons are the easiest they've ever been. There are no interrupts any more. No debuffs that need to be cleansed. There are a ridiculous number of forced single pulls, no big pulls bigger than 2 packs, and tanks have been massively overbuffed again.

[Volgia]

I'm not talking about optimisation. I'm talking about the basics. I don't think the game should allow people to hit level 100 as a WHM with only glare and cure 1 on their hotbars.

In what sense do you find Dawntrail dungeons harder than previous expansions? I think most of the complaints on Dt release were coming from newer players who started during Endwalker and hadn't played a dungeon without being ilvl synced before. Some of the bosses one or two overlapping mechanics but that's fairly normal. Overall I think the dungeons are the easiest they've ever been. There are no interrupts any more. No debuffs that need to be cleansed. There are a ridiculous number of forced single pulls, no big pulls bigger than 2 packs, and tanks have been massively overbuffed again.

The fact we don't have hard pulls since time in memorial is such a tragedy to me. Remember in ShB when they dared to put healing down mechanics on some mobs? Whatever happened to that?

[Mawlzy]

I'm not talking about optimisation. I'm talking about the basics. I don't think the game should allow people to hit level 100 as a WHM with only glare and cure 1 on their hotbars.

In what sense do you find Dawntrail dungeons harder than previous expansions? I think most of the complaints on Dt release were coming from newer players who started during Endwalker and hadn't played a dungeon without being ilvl synced before. Some of the bosses one or two overlapping mechanics but that's fairly normal. Overall I think the dungeons are the easiest they've ever been. There are no interrupts any more. No debuffs that need to be cleansed. There are a ridiculous number of forced single pulls, no big pulls bigger than 2 packs, and tanks have been massively overbuffed again.

Yeah what Valence says. It's just too fast with too much visual mess. I find it really difficult to pick off boss tells and remembering cast names is also challenging (possibly because once I've cleared a MSQ dungeon I don't touch it again). I did switch from MCH to WAR to get through the MSQ dungeons with NPCs, but I still found it difficult and frankly unpleasant.

To loop back to the issue of rotations, struggling players like me are told to not worry about doing damage, first avoid the mechanics. Very sensible, but also a massive indictment of fight design. And the less skilled you are, the more the fight reduces to DDR. Why learn what your kit does when you don't have time to use it?

The other huge issue I have is button bloat. If I wanted to use all my kit, I can't because I simply can't create that many comfortable keybinds.

I figure in terms of skill, in PvP I am top 20%, in PvE bottom 20%. A huge chunk of that is that in PvP I don't need to look at either my hotbars or keyboard. And I enjoy PvP.