The new player experience and how FFXIV fails as an MMO.

[DPZ2]

The game won't teach you how to play properly, making getting into extreme and savages feel hostile.

I've read this sentiment for many years. I am puzzled, however, when it is applied to MMORPG genre games.

Which MMORPG genre games actually "teach you how to play properly"? It wasn't ESO. It wasn't WoW. It wasn't Rift. It wasn't Wildstar. It wasn't Everquest. It wasn't Runescape, or Albion, or ...

Please, someone, provide the names of MMORPG genre games that teach "how to raid" with any level of detail.

Thanks.

[Kohashi]

I've read this sentiment for many years. I am puzzled, however, when it is applied to MMORPG genre games.

Which MMORPG genre games actually "teach you how to play properly"? It wasn't ESO. It wasn't WoW. It wasn't Rift. It wasn't Wildstar. It wasn't Everquest. It wasn't Runescape, or Albion, or ...

Please, someone, provide the names of MMORPG genre games that teach "how to raid" with any level of detail.

Thanks.

TERA and Blade and Soul provided instances where you could practice not only your rotation but also practice specific mechanics of a particular boss.

Blade and Soul: Hongmoon Training room where you had training for your class (beginner, intermediate, advanced) + all Heroic + raid fights
TERA: Training Grounds

However, both Tera and BnS were extremely fast-paced and unforgiving in terms of mistakes, especially BnS, which, to make matters even worse, did not have the Holy Trinity either. If you failed to position yourself and failed to iframe.. GG no RE.

[Volgia]

I've read this sentiment for many years. I am puzzled, however, when it is applied to MMORPG genre games.

Which MMORPG genre games actually "teach you how to play properly"? It wasn't ESO. It wasn't WoW. It wasn't Rift. It wasn't Wildstar. It wasn't Everquest. It wasn't Runescape, or Albion, or ...

Please, someone, provide the names of MMORPG genre games that teach "how to raid" with any level of detail.

Thanks.

I played WoW and GW2. The difficulty curve between dungeons > Heroic dungeons > raids wasn't as steep as FFXIV. In FFXIV I didn't know I was doing sub-par damage, it was not until a raider friend put me through a DPS meter (which is again against ToS) that I realized I wasn't playing right. I had no idea about Sky, Stone and Sea either, this is when I was brand new mind you.

The divide between when I played the game normally to when I was raiding felt like I was playing a whole different game. Rotations? Buff alignment? Potions? OGCD management? Healer DPS? (and back then there was Cleric stance).

If you go to Sky, Stone and Sea without knowing your rotation you will not kill the dummy. But nothing exactly tells you what you are doing wrong, and there are no in-game tools you can use to improve your gameplay.

[Mawlzy]

I played WoW and GW2. The difficulty curve between dungeons > Heroic dungeons > raids wasn't as steep as FFXIV. In FFXIV I didn't know I was doing sub-par damage, it was not until a raider friend put me through a DPS meter (which is again against ToS) that I realized I wasn't playing right. I had no idea about Sky, Stone and Sea either, this is when I was brand new mind you.

The divide between when I played the game normally to when I was raiding felt like I was playing a whole different game. Rotations? Buff alignment? Potions? OGCD management? Healer DPS? (and back then there was Cleric stance).

If you go to Sky, Stone and Sea without knowing your rotation you will not kill the dummy. But nothing exactly tells you what you are doing wrong, and there are no in-game tools you can use to improve your gameplay.

This is a very perceptive comment. I'd even suggest that when those who play the game normally stumble into discussions about buff alignment and oGCD management, they don't recognize the game being described as the one they are playing.

Part of the interplayer friction we see is that those who have discovered this aspect of the game feel those that continue to play the game normally should learn these concepts and habits.

But why? What is so terrible about playing the game normally? It sounds very... normal. At the very least, what this suggests is that there are two legitimate ways of playing the game. The normal one and the raid-centric one.

[BigCheez]

This is a very perceptive comment. I'd even suggest that when those who play the game normally stumble into discussions about buff alignment and oGCD management, they don't recognize the game being described as the one they are playing.

Part of the interplayer friction we see is that those who have discovered this aspect of the game feel those that continue to play the game normally should learn these concepts and habits.

But why? What is so terrible about playing the game normally? It sounds very... normal. At the very least, what this suggests is that there are two legitimate ways of playing the game. The normal one and the raid-centric one.

The issue is the implications of playing your job incorrectly being normal.

We can't have normal mode content that requires players to actively participate because the majority of the playerbase don't actually have any idea how the game works. And the majority of the playerbase have no idea how the game works because the game doesn't do anything to teach them, or even incentivise figuring it out or using external resources to learn for themselves.

No damage to heal. No mitigation required. No DPS checks. No dispellable debuffs. No interrupts. No stuns. No CC. The game never requires you to do anything except not stand in the orange. The devs have done everything they can to ensure that failure is near impossible.

The game is stuck in a vicious cycle of not being able to have engaging content because the playerbase isn't good enough at the game, and players knowing nothing about the game because the content doesn't require them to learn anything about the game. It makes it very boring for people who do know how to play the game and see all the wasted potential.

[Mawlzy]

The issue is the implications of playing your job incorrectly being normal.

We can't have normal mode content that requires players to actively participate because the majority of the playerbase don't actually have any idea how the game works. And the majority of the playerbase have no idea how the game works because the game doesn't do anything to teach them, or even incentivise figuring it out or using external resources to learn for themselves.

No damage to heal. No mitigation required. No DPS checks. No dispellable debuffs. No interrupts. No stuns. No CC. The game never requires you to do anything except not stand in the orange. The devs have done everything they can to ensure that failure is near impossible.

The game is stuck in a vicious cycle of not being able to have engaging content because the playerbase isn't good enough at the game, and players knowing nothing about the game because the content doesn't require them to learn anything about the game. It makes it very boring for people who do know how to play the game and see all the wasted potential.

I see that as two irreconcilable but legitimate playstyles, hence why I advocate a dual-track approach. Learning and implementing a rigid rotation is, for many, extremely boring.

It's the case in any MMO I can think of that those who want to push their limits and engage in high-end PvE will naturally gravitate towards external sources. Like even in CCGs it's rare for the game to tell you how to optimize your deck, so everyone goes to Icy Veins.

[BigCheez]

I see that as two irreconcilable but legitimate playstyles, hence why I advocate a dual-track approach. Learning and implementing a rigid rotation is, for many, extremely boring.

It's the case in any MMO I can think of that those who want to push their limits and engage in high-end PvE will naturally gravitate towards external sources. Like even in CCGs it's rare for the game to tell you how to optimize your deck, so everyone goes to Icy Veins.

Yeah, I agree but I don't think that's a good approach to game design. The game has two distinctly separate groups of players. Group 1, who are so incompetent that they don't even know what they don't know, and group 2, who know how the game works and feel like they don't get to play the game when they engage with content that's designed for group 1.

IMO the game should ask more of players and do more to teach them how to do what it's asking of them. It would create a more fun and engaging experience for everyone.

[Volgia]

I see that as two irreconcilable but legitimate playstyles, hence why I advocate a dual-track approach. Learning and implementing a rigid rotation is, for many, extremely boring.

It's the case in any MMO I can think of that those who want to push their limits and engage in high-end PvE will naturally gravitate towards external sources. Like even in CCGs it's rare for the game to tell you how to optimize your deck, so everyone goes to Icy Veins.

I wish this game had playstyles. What I do mean is that how you play the game in normal mode should somewhat translate in how you play in Extremes+, but it doesn't and there are no in-game tools for you to get there, so from a newbie perspective it feels extremely hostile to get into that type of content.

[Mawlzy]

Yeah, I agree but I don't think that's a good approach to game design. The game has two distinctly separate groups of players. Group 1, who are so incompetent that they don't even know what they don't know, and group 2, who know how the game works and feel like they don't get to play the game when they engage with content that's designed for group 1.

IMO the game should ask more of players and do more to teach them how to do what it's asking of them. It would create a more fun and engaging experience for everyone.

I think "incompetent" misses the point. In NA/EU I suspect Group 1 is the majority, and I'd suggest their ignorance of one facet of the game (PvE) is a legitimate choice.

Maybe I'm just projecting, but I think a large chunk of Group 1 does know that they can do more damage in a dungeon if they studied one of Wesk's or Caetsu's guides and memorized the optimal rotations. But why on earth would they? PvE does not interest everyone, particularly when it approaches rotation optimization. This is particularly true in FFXIV because the PvE is just plain bad.

I'd agree with you that this is a choice on SE's part. What the game "teaches" you in MSQ dungeons is that if you run out of the bad fast enough and hit the flashy buttons occasionally, everything will work out. Why do you suppose SE has made that choice? It's because they recognize that those interested in optimization are a minority. If this were not the case and the intent, would we not have in-game damage meters? The game is like this because the only optimization SE cares about is sub-count.

As to creating a "more fun and engaging experience," manifestly no. People are leaving because DT has raised MSQ dungeon difficulty to a point that a part of Group 1 doesn't want to deal with.

I wish this game had playstyles. What I do mean is that how you play the game in normal mode should somewhat translate in how you play in Extremes+, but it doesn't and there are no in-game tools for you to get there, so from a newbie perspective it feels extremely hostile to get into that type of content.

An oft-repeated myth IMO. Sure there is hostility from raiders as is so evident on these boards, but the content itself doesn't put up a wall of hostility. The barrier is one of tedium. Or more generously, it's just a choice.

[Kohashi]

The issue is the implications of playing your job incorrectly being normal.

We can't have normal mode content that requires players to actively participate because the majority of the playerbase don't actually have any idea how the game works. And the majority of the playerbase have no idea how the game works because the game doesn't do anything to teach them, or even incentivise figuring it out or using external resources to learn for themselves.

No damage to heal. No mitigation required. No DPS checks. No dispellable debuffs. No interrupts. No stuns. No CC. The game never requires you to do anything except not stand in the orange. The devs have done everything they can to ensure that failure is near impossible.

The game is stuck in a vicious cycle of not being able to have engaging content because the playerbase isn't good enough at the game, and players knowing nothing about the game because the content doesn't require them to learn anything about the game. It makes it very boring for people who do know how to play the game and see all the wasted potential.

While the difference between somebody who engages with high-end content and someone who does not is like night and day, I do have to say I do appreciate, in a way, the simplistic nature of the normal content.

In my opinion, it all comes down to the person. One who seeks to improve will always actively search for information and will never need a game/somebody to babysit them. The same applies in day-to-day life.

At the end of the day is not the game that should push you to improve; you have to have the desire to push forward. That's why some people are so resistant to advice, because they don't care about playing the game optimally, and that's fine. It's completly OK to suck at the game and focus on the social aspect.