The new player experience and how FFXIV fails as an MMO.

[Raikai]

I'll however disagree on that last part, as it is absolutely obvious with a lot of job changes notably the latest BLM patch that they do this specifically to accommodate for increased pacing and DDR.

This made me think... Are we ever going to see a turret caster again who needs to be very precise about their placement versus uptime?
BLM 8.0's patch notes: Every ice spell is now instant-cast on Umbral Ice lol.

Why they're doing this? To accomodate the faster doubled-down DDR? To me it just speaks hints on how they want to have less work balancing fights. In theory, it should be easier to plan an encounter if you don't need to account for certain jobs having limited mobility.

[Daralii]

Why they're doing this? To accomodate the faster doubled-down DDR?

Yes. There was a comment in the patch notes that said long cast times and immobility are incompatible with their vision for high-end fight design.

[Valence]

This made me think... Are we ever going to see a turret caster again who needs to be very precise about their placement versus uptime?
BLM 8.0's patch notes: Every ice spell is now instant-cast on Umbral Ice lol.

Why they're doing this? To accomodate the faster doubled-down DDR? To me it just speaks hints on how they want to have less work balancing fights. In theory, it should be easier to plan an encounter if you don't need to account for certain jobs having limited mobility.

If the amount of movement required for every encounter in the game stays the same, then no, I don't think we're gonna see turret jobs anymore unless it radically dials back to pre EW/DT levels at the very least.
Because let's be real, BLM has stopped being a job being precise about their placement versus uptime after SHB, or even during SB (kinda in between). It's become a job about mobility casting, whether or not its spells were long casts by default or not. It's been a job about burning mobility tools in a clever way (or on a memorized spreadsheet per fight) in order to keep casting while moving. After HW it's ceased to be a job with no mobility tool other than swiftcast (on 90s) and sharpcast (on 60s) with literally zero insta casted spells but the occasional thundercloud that was about POSITIONING. Bring HW BLM into anything post ShB and the job would just not work at all, because HW wasn't about moving all the time.

#NeverForgetMao

[Shurrikhan]

But that's the thing. All of what you listed, I find interesting and never considered it remotely hard. I've never seen people struggling with it like I've seen people struggling with what you say is not above average difficulty.

Then that's where we differ. I've seen quite a few wipes in Tam Tara Hard, in Stone Vigil Hard, in pre-nerf Pharos Sirius, against Mist Dragon, even some wipes against whatever the HW white dragon was called, the last and second-to-last bosses of Keeper of the Lake, in Wanderer's Palace HM, Gubal Hard, and Saint Mocianne's, against the last boss of Ghimlyt Dark, and even the last of Anamnesis Anyder, the first of The Twinning, and the second of Hero's Gauntlet, etc., etc.

In all of Dawntrail thus far, despite leveling almost exclusively via dungeon spam (doing async commission work while in queue as DPS) and doing the daily Expert Roulette to reach weekly caps, there's only been two bosses I've seen multiple wipes on: the last boss of Skydeep Cenote and the first boss of Strayborough Deadwalk. Despite the added movement requirements of, say, Yuweyata last boss, I still have yet to see more than a couple wipes in total not caused by d/cs across all other Dawntrail dungeons. And that's far from a small sample size of runs.

I'll however disagree on that last part, as it is absolutely obvious with a lot of job changes notably the latest BLM patch that they do this specifically to accommodate for increased pacing and DDR.

I disagree. Even pre-prancing BLM could manage the most movement-intensive fights when well played. It was dumbed down not because the fights specifically needed it but because they thought players wanted it dumbed down in that way.

It's become a job about mobility casting, whether or not its spells were long casts by default or not. It's been a job about burning mobility tools in a clever way (or on a memorized spreadsheet per fight) in order to keep casting while moving.

It always has been. Even in ARR under wrap-over MP (able to get a natural MP tick just after using Fire spell, since the MP-regen-prevention was slightly delayed) and double-quickened casts (when you could get a second spell hasted by the opposite element if you queued it fast enough), BLM played around smart use of mobility opportunities. That's always been what made it an interesting "turret" class -- constraints and ingenuity therearound.

The differences since have simply been how much excess one has (how many mistakes one must make before they feel potency loss, and how sharp or cumulative that cost is), but make no mistake that we had those kinds of capacities to min-max around movement even before -- it's not a new concern, nor even a newly emphasized one by any significant margin.

Again, I suspect that the reasons for BLM mobility increases, which are in further excess of need, follow the same lines of reasoning as the simplifications to Monk, Viper, Ninja, etc., none of which were warranted by or required by fight design, either.

Tl;dr: Again, no, we can have fights less limited to DDR under the present kits and we could have managed the current levels of DDR even before each job's latest wave of simplifications. The two merely come from a similar aim, rather than the one requiring the other.

[Valence]

Then that's where we differ. I've seen quite a few wipes in Tam Tara Hard, in Stone Vigil Hard, in pre-nerf Pharos Sirius, against Mist Dragon, even some wipes against whatever the HW white dragon was called, the last and second-to-last bosses of Keeper of the Lake, in Wanderer's Palace HM, Gubal Hard, and Saint Mocianne's, against the last boss of Ghimlyt Dark, and even the last of Anamnesis Anyder, the first of The Twinning, and the second of Hero's Gauntlet, etc., etc.



In all of Dawntrail thus far, despite leveling almost exclusively via dungeon spam (doing async commission work while in queue as DPS) and doing the daily Expert Roulette to reach weekly caps, there's only been two bosses I've seen multiple wipes on: the last boss of Skydeep Cenote and the first boss of Strayborough Deadwalk. Despite the added movement requirements of, say, Yuweyata last boss, I still have yet to see more than a couple wipes in total not caused by d/cs across all other Dawntrail dungeons. And that's far from a small sample size of runs.

You misunderstand. I specifically said that wipes used to happen a great deal more, even in dungeons. It was a recurring thing actually, and part of life.
Individual, constant deaths from the same exact player from DDR though, that was almost unheard of. That same player that just keeps dropping dead while everybody continues, that's something more new. That's what we traded the team wipes for. That poor soul that just cannot get through the dance and has to get dragged by the healer/tank all the way to the finish line.

I do agree with the assessment, actually. I just don't agree on which one is better than the other especially because team wipes back in older dungeons were rarely 100% binary and pointing universally at one single culprit either. It was a team effort, and a team mistake. Was there a lot of back and forth and tension between tanks and healers? Sure. I don't think a functional trinity system could even avoid that problem, but I'd be open to suggestions. I just disagree with the path that SE has chosen to fix the problem (aka, just break the trinity until it limps through).

I disagree. Even pre-prancing BLM could manage the most movement-intensive fights when well played. It was dumbed down not because the fights specifically needed it but because they thought players wanted it dumbed down in that way.

Nobody said BLM couldn't. When well played is the important part and why even the devs said that was the exact reason they changed it (unless they did lie), and I can see why. I think people just don't realize how much more demanding by the patches BLM has become to play over time in relation to an ever inflating pace and DDR everywhere.

It always has been. Even in ARR under wrap-over MP (able to get a natural MP tick just after using Fire spell, since the MP-regen-prevention was slightly delayed) and double-quickened casts (when you could get a second spell hasted by the opposite element if you queued it fast enough), BLM played around smart use of mobility opportunities. That's always been what made it an interesting "turret" class -- constraints and ingenuity therearound.

The differences since have simply been how much excess one has (how many mistakes one must make before they feel potency loss, and how sharp or cumulative that cost is), but make no mistake that we had those kinds of capacities to min-max around movement even before -- it's not a new concern, nor even a newly emphasized one by any significant margin.

Again, I suspect that the reasons for BLM mobility increases, which are in further excess of need, follow the same lines of reasoning as the simplifications to Monk, Viper, Ninja, etc., none of which were warranted by or required by fight design, either.

Tl;dr: Again, no, we can have fights less limited to DDR under the present kits and we could have managed the current levels of DDR even before each job's latest wave of simplifications. The two merely come from a similar aim, rather than the one requiring the other.

Strong disagree there. BLM was less about movement and a lot more about positioning which is a gigantic difference to my eyes. The paradigm is just not the same at all for the reason I exposed, but I feel that I don't want to continue there because I'll go back in circles just repeating my arguments.

This is also why a lot of BLM players have eventually started hating on the modern design or just dropped off the job over time, if just to cite a few from those forums like Mao or Taranok. And like them, I hate what they did to BLM and encounters all the same.

[Devotions]

For a while I tried to get friends to play, but the reality I had to accept was that aside from the (mandatory) dungeons and trials, there just isn't a lot of reason or way to play together when your levels and msq progress are very different. Sure, I can follow you around while you watch three hours of cutscenes and run from one spot to another, but for the most part this game is a very solo experience.

Tomestone gear being locked behind MSQ progress only makes it worse - there is no reason to become overleveled when you can't get tome gear for a level 90 because you're still in SB while your tomes are capped from running roulettes with friends. It's like the actively discourage you from playing together unless your MSQ is done. (And there are only so many jobs to buy gear for if you're taking your time with the story, assuming you even want to play everything.)

[Shurrikhan]

Strong disagree there. BLM was less about movement and a lot more about positioning which is a gigantic difference to my eyes. The paradigm is just not the same at all for the reason I exposed, but I feel that I don't want to continue there because I'll go back in circles just repeating my arguments.

This is also why a lot of BLM players have eventually started hating on the modern design or just dropped off the job over time, if just to cite a few from those forums like Mao or Taranok. And like them, I hate what they did to BLM and encounters all the same.

I didn't disagree that it's about positioning. You cannot, however, change positions without movement, nor prepare that available movement without timing phase changes or banking resources, which we'd been doing since ARR. It wasn't just 'pick a starting position and hope for the best'.

It's precisely because the amount of movement tools we have now are excessive for (not demanded by) our typical encounters even now that BLM feels less skill-expressive in that regard. We should want to know when to early swap, etc. Now, we have little to no reason to, which has made the kit feel less involved.

I do agree with the assessment, actually. I just don't agree on which one is better than the other especially because team wipes back in older dungeons were rarely 100% binary and pointing universally at one single culprit either. It was a team effort, and a team mistake. Was there a lot of back and forth and tension between tanks and healers? Sure. I don't think a functional trinity system could even avoid that problem, but I'd be open to suggestions. I just disagree with the path that SE has chosen to fix the problem (aka, just break the trinity until it limps through).

I made no claim on which one is better. I just pointed out that we didn't merely go from low difficulty to high difficulty but rather from having many more factors of difficulty towards a more singularly "DDR" focus.

[Exmo]

When people say they want to play through the story together but the game doesn't facilitate that, what exactly is their expectation of collaborative play? Aside from having to disband the party for solo instances, which is annoying but a rare occurrence.

[Naoki34]

Well, it really hasn't changed FFXIV's claim office.

[Gyson]

Today i was talking to my sister again, and asked her when she might continue to play the game.

So i give you some of her responses why she and her friend doesn't continue playing for now , they are somewhere in the middle of Shadowbringers before they quit some months ago.
And i do agree wholy with her.

Even though she likes the story overall and the characters, and she knows the game has a lot of cool things to offer from what i showed her, here is the main issue:

The story is too long and not multiplayer friendly.

We are now several years and multiple expansions in the lifespan of FFXIV, but the MSQ gets longer and longer and longer ever since. It simply takes way too long now to get through it all, we are now at 300+ hours to the end of Dawntrail, if not more. A casual player will take months to get through it before reaching the current content of the game, also unlocking all trials and dungeons takes a really long time.

There is also the other problem that the MSQ is a mostly single player experience, she tries to play with her boyfrined but beside dungeons and trials there is pretty much no multiplayer content or reason to run around in groups. You can't do any of the story sequences ina group because they are all solo instances.
they sit literally next to each other at home, but have barely any interaction in the game together.

Then there is the problem of unlocking dungeons, trials or raids. You can't simply do anything together in this game if one player hasnt unlocked a thing.

Another critique is that the MSQ has almost no combat interactions, when she took a longer break and got back into the game, she forgets what she is even doing with her class because unless you do a dungeon there is no combat during MSQ, you maybe kill one or two easy mobs for a quest but thats it, and then it is just running around and talking again.

> MSQ needs more combat elements to keep the player awake in between dungeons and trials.

I do not suggest buying a story skip to get there, because then you know nothing about what is going on, but something must be done to reduce the lenght of the MSQ, it must be cut and trimmed down by 30-50% at this point. A lot of not plot relevant quests must be removed or turned into side quests to keep the story.

fazit: The game fails new players as an MMO, but also kinda fails as a good single player experience because of its excessive lenght and boring gameplay elements during the MSQ part.

I really don't understand the complaints mentioned here. I started playing FFXIV around the time Coils was introduced, when level 50 was still the cap. Regardless, it felt like there was more content available at level 50 than there was on my trip from level 1 to 50. And, honestly, I couldn't have been more happy about that. I was thoroughly enjoying the game and my only thoughts about the seemingly endless amount of content ahead was that there was more of the game I loved to enjoy. It was impossible to see that as a bad thing.

FFXIV isn't like some other MMOs where all of the fun stuff is locked behind an end-game. Most of its systems (like 8 man trials) are introduced on the way to 50, and by level 50 you've seen most of what there is to see gameplay wise. Everything beyond that is just variations on a theme. Yes, the designs of dungeons and raids get more interesting as the expansions roll by, and classes have more options. But they were good to start out with and the improvements over time just make the ongoing experience all the more enjoyable.

I have played and enjoyed this entire game with friends and (outside of grinding something specific for myself) never alone, and so I don't understand the complaint that the game isn't multiplayer friendly. And complaining that there is too much story, when the narrative is arguably one of the game's strengths, is like complaining about having too many romantic encounters. Sorry, I had to think of a PG way to say that.

Now, if your friend doesn't like the story (and there are people who don't, who just want to grind their way to max level and take on whatever challenges await there), that's understandable. But that doesn't mean there's a problem with the game. It just means this type of MMO is probably not for them. Or settle on a story skip - you're worried that they won't know what's going on, but it doesn't seem like they really care, else they'd be happily consuming the story. I enjoyed it so much that I went through it twice when new-game plus was introduced, and wouldn't want to see it reduced at all.

I would like to see more combat woven into the story, but often the most entertaining form of that comes from the solo-duties as the kill-tasks out in the open world can be spoiled by the presence of random players. This MMO is certainly not like WoW or Everquest where you spend more time grinding on mobs than anything else, and I'm not really sure I want it to be. FATEs exist for that option.

If I were a new player coming into this game I would be in heaven. But that's because I enjoy the game and there's a lot of game here to enjoy. So I don't think the game fails for new players, but that doesn't mean it can or should be a game for everyone.