The new player experience and how FFXIV fails as an MMO.

[Gyson]

Personally, I agree with this.

Any new player I've tried to get to join hasn't stayed. People tout 'oh the story is amazing though and it's not their game if they won't stay'. Sure. Maybe it isn't their game.

But that attitude won't attract new players, especially as older ones are bleeding away. I'm only here still because of roleplay - this game has so much less to offer than games like WoW, which is getting more true considering they're adding housing. All of my stories are tied to FFXIV though and thus, I'm staying.

But that isn't the case for many people, who will leave given the game just...isn't offering a point to play for many now, and not much to keep new players playing. People can yell 'well that's their fault they won't stay' all they want. It won't help the game grow.

There has to be something done but SE seems to want to continue listening to people who think it's blasphemy to offer a non-purchaseable skip.

In the very least, content shouldn't be totally blocked by story.

But this is an MMO that focuses heavily on story, and for some players that's the main appeal. I don't see a world where the story is essentially shelved and this game becomes another WoW-clone. That will only cause it to be appealing to a different audience, not necessarily a larger one.

I do agree that non-story elements in this game, particularly in the open world, could use a lot of improvement. For as much as FFXIV relies on FATES they have always been one of the game's weaker activities. Guild Wars 2 has their own version of FATEs which are, for whatever reason, much more interesting and engaging (to me) than FFXIV's FATEs have ever been. The presentation and execution of them is just awful.

Outside of that we just have field-combat in the open world, which I think is doomed to dull because FFXIV is a tab-target MMO. That will never be exciting, especially to the type of people you probably hope to attract. The only time it gets remotely interesting is with the occasional A or S Rank as they have more than two mechanics. I don't think we're going to see FFXIV turned into an action-combat game anytime soon. So how else can it be improved? I played WoW for 6 years and I can't really say it was any better there.. perhaps only a bit more fun because the open world encounters were more dangerous.

FFXIV's dungeons can be entertaining, as can trials and raids. And unlike most MMOs crafting is fantastic fun, at least until you start relying on macros and guides to essentially automate the gameplay for you (at which point you come to the forums and complain crafting is boring).

But outside of that it's the field-content in the open world and the story, and of the two the latter is definitely the stronger feature of this MMO. There is a lot of story content in FFXIV I still haven't consumed, and I will say that almost every time I pull at one of those random threads I walk away from the experience thinking how crazy it is that I almost didn't experience that hidden gem, and that's almost always because of the presentation and story.

[PyurBlue]

I don't see a world where the story is essentially shelved and this game becomes another WoW-clone.

Is anyone asking for that? The issue keeps getting framed as a binary one where the story has to overshadow every other part of the game or it has to be irrelevant. Those are only the most extreme options. The length of the story stops having downsides when it stops interfering with the MMO side of the game. I also don't see any benefit to making the story required when it comes to player interest. If anything, letting the player choose when to engage with the story should lead to the least burnout because there are no competing goals like trying to catch up with friends.

Going back and changing the structure of the game from ARR to DT would be a lot of work so there might not be many feasible ways to make changes there, but the future is an open book and I think the game could benefit a lot from allowing more player freedom and interaction.

[Gyson]

Is anyone asking for that? The issue keeps getting framed as a binary one where the story has to overshadow every other part of the game or it has to be irrelevant. Those are only the most extreme options. The length of the story stops having downsides when it stops interfering with the MMO side of the game. I also don't see any benefit to making the story required when it comes to player interest. If anything, letting the player choose when to engage with the story should lead to the least burnout because there are no competing goals like trying to catch up with friends.

Going back and changing the structure of the game from ARR to DT would be a lot of work so there might not be many feasible ways to make changes there, but the future is an open book and I think the game could benefit a lot from allowing more player freedom and interaction.

But you know the formula - the introduction of new (especially leveling dungeons) are usually woven into the story, which provides players with the option of running them with NPCs who are part of the story (and a reason for those NPCs to be there). What you're essentially asking for is to have that content separated from the story, which in turn will make the experience worse for those players who do enjoy the story. Or you're asking the developers to create twice as many dungeons so players can level and gear up via the story route or a non-story route, and I doubt that is feasible under their current development schedule given that they already seem to be struggling with their pace.

A story-skip option is available for those who want to catch up to the current expansion, and while I would never use one it seems like the entire effort to wrap a bow on the previous 10-year story was at least in part to provide potential players with a new starting point to jump to. And if they do and discover they actually like the current story they can always tackle the previous expansions at their leisure through the New Game Plus feature. It's not the perfect way to digest an MMO, but it's a pretty decent option, and one that is available *right now* without shaking up the formula in unwanted ways for long-time players who have actually enjoyed the design from the last ten years.

Between Endwalker closing off the last ten years, Dawntrail starting a new adventure, the New Game Plus feature and the story skip option all being available now, there has never been a better time to bring new friends into the game who have been holding back because they didn't want to progress through multiple expansions to reach the end-game. Can we at least agree on that?

[Altina_Orion]

But you know the formula - the introduction of new (especially leveling dungeons) are usually woven into the story, which provides players with the option of running them with NPCs who are part of the story (and a reason for those NPCs to be there). What you're essentially asking for is to have that content separated from the story, which in turn will make the experience worse for those players who do enjoy the story. Or you're asking the developers to create twice as many dungeons so players can level and gear up via the story route or a non-story route, and I doubt that is feasible under their current development schedule given that they already seem to be struggling with their pace.

A story-skip option is available for those who want to catch up to the current expansion, and while I would never use one it seems like the entire effort to wrap a bow on the previous 10-year story was at least in part to provide potential players with a new starting point to jump to. And if they do and discover they actually like the current story they can always tackle the previous expansions at their leisure through the New Game Plus feature. It's not the perfect way to digest an MMO, but it's a pretty decent option, and one that is available *right now* without shaking up the formula in unwanted ways for long-time players who have actually enjoyed the design from the last ten years.

Between Endwalker closing off the last ten years, Dawntrail starting a new adventure, the New Game Plus feature and the story skip option all being available now, there has never been a better time to bring new friends into the game who have been holding back because they didn't want to progress through multiple expansions to reach the end-game. Can we at least agree on that?

Story skip is really a shitty solution to bring up, "Yeah buy the game for $60 or whatever than spend $15 on a sub then spend another $40 on a story skip and we can play together! Or grind out 500 hours of story!"

[Gyson]

Story skip is really a shitty solution to bring up, "Yeah buy the game for $60 or whatever than spend $15 on a sub then spend another $40 on a story skip and we can play together! Or grind out 500 hours of story!"

I understand your point, but at the same time that's a bit of an exaggeration. The game can be purchased for $40, a sub is $13, and the story skip is $25. So that $115 price tag you're suggesting is actually $78. And it's not just a multi-expansion story skip - it levels a character's class to 90, provides them with a full set of level 90 gear, a half a million in gil, and saves them however many months of subscription cost it would normally take to progress through A Realm Reborn and four additional expansions. If it even saves you just two months of subscription time then it's paid for itself. That is not that horrible of an ask, especially compared to what $25 normally gets you in most modern online game's cash shops.

I'm not wild about the term "grind" in the context you're using it in, because "grinding out 500 hours of story" is.. you know, playing a Final Fantasy themed game. But if people want to skip the main draw of a Final Fantasy game then at least an option exists.

I don't know, if I wanted a specific friend/sibling to play this game with me, but they didn't want to have to play through 500 (or however many) hours of content alone just to catch up, I'd just offer to play through the game with them (the New Game Plus option provides long-time players with the means to do this alongside new players). As I mentioned earlier, I went through this entire game with friends - we voice the unspoken dialogues to each other and all that other embarrassing nonsense to make everything more entertaining and a shared experience. Your newly introduced friends don't have to play through multiple expansions alone without you, and you get the benefit of a front-row seat to all their reactions as the story unfolds.

[Absurdity]

I understand your point, but at the same time that's a bit of an exaggeration. The game can be purchased for $40, a sub is $13, and the story skip is $25. So that $115 price tag you're suggesting is actually $78.

Since we are talking about playing with friends at the endgame, a new player would have to buy the complete edition which does cost you $60.

[PyurBlue]

But you know the formula - the introduction of new (especially leveling dungeons) are usually woven into the story, which provides players with the option of running them with NPCs who are part of the story (and a reason for those NPCs to be there). What you're essentially asking for is to have that content separated from the story, which in turn will make the experience worse for those players who do enjoy the story. Or you're asking the developers to create twice as many dungeons so players can level and gear up via the story route or a non-story route, and I doubt that is feasible under their current development schedule given that they already seem to be struggling with their pace.

There are already side quests with their own stories that are separated enough from the MSQ to be completely optional. Non MSQ dungeons could function in a way that is similar where they have a story but it's not tied to the main narrative. As optional content there would be less need to design them around NPC's but if that was still deemed necessary, pick someone besides the scions (until the player reaches a point in the MSQ where their appearance makes sense).

This would require more dungeons to be made like you point out, though it's not clear to me if this is asking too much of SE. It's not unreasonable to request improvements and I wouldn't mind if they had to divert some resources to build some new ideas that break away from their very predictable formula.

A story-skip option is available for those who want to catch up to the current expansion, and while I would never use one it seems like the entire effort to wrap a bow on the previous 10-year story was at least in part to provide potential players with a new starting point to jump to. And if they do and discover they actually like the current story they can always tackle the previous expansions at their leisure through the New Game Plus feature. It's not the perfect way to digest an MMO, but it's a pretty decent option, and one that is available *right now* without shaking up the formula in unwanted ways for long-time players who have actually enjoyed the design from the last ten years.

Having to pay more just to make the game more accessible sounds backwards to me. I also wouldn't consider making MSQ optional to be shaking things up any more than a story-skip would. The MSQ is will still be there, and it could even benefit because it would no longer need to accommodate players that want to participate and those that want to get to other content - yes there is a story skip but not everyone is going to take it, the skip wasn't enough to keep parts of the MSQ from being trimmed or adjusted in the past. The optional non MSQ dungeons would exist for everyone and could even be used to create alternative methods for completing the MSQ. What if at some point you need drop X and you can choose to search for it in MSQ dungeon Y or optional dungeon Z?

Between Endwalker closing off the last ten years, Dawntrail starting a new adventure, the New Game Plus feature and the story skip option all being available now, there has never been a better time to bring new friends into the game who have been holding back because they didn't want to progress through multiple expansions to reach the end-game. Can we at least agree on that?

It's a mixed bag. NG+ was a glaring omission for what is supposed to a story focused game. The story-skip is one way to get around having to go through the story before doing other content, but why pay to solve a problem that the devs created and also encourage them to keep on the same path? Not everyone is going to want to do that and I feel like that is very understandable. A more open ended way to play the game isn't just a new player issue anyway, it's something that can improve the experience for all players. I can only speak for myself, but SE's very tight control over MSQ progression doesn't enhance the story or the gameplay for me.

Why no create an accelerated path that perhaps catches you up to DT or whatever the current expansion is but gives the option to take the slow-msq route?

Some kind of catch up path would make a lot of sense and help prevent players from being lost by skipping the story entirely. It would also be a good alternative for alt characters.

[Altina_Orion]

Is anyone asking for that? The issue keeps getting framed as a binary one where the story has to overshadow every other part of the game or it has to be irrelevant. Those are only the most extreme options. The length of the story stops having downsides when it stops interfering with the MMO side of the game. I also don't see any benefit to making the story required when it comes to player interest. If anything, letting the player choose when to engage with the story should lead to the least burnout because there are no competing goals like trying to catch up with friends.

Going back and changing the structure of the game from ARR to DT would be a lot of work so there might not be many feasible ways to make changes there, but the future is an open book and I think the game could benefit a lot from allowing more player freedom and interaction.

Welcome to the FF forum, where everything is a false dilemma logical fallacy.

Also, people have been a big fan of the WoW story. DESPITE why people think, WoW is also a story driven MMO - its just broken into campagins. A lot of people are really enjoying the story of latest expansion TWW. I think the story is a bit short and can be confusing to players that havent played previous stories AND ALSO its an issue that they did shelf some earlier stories like classic when Cataclysm came out, but everything that happened before is still cannon.

Realistically, I'm not sure what the answer is, but even from a casual context, play through 500 hours of story so you can kill some things in OC with your friends is not the play, and the things available in ARR that Gyson described are largely either solo activities or largely dead content (with exceptions such as PvP). Like, thinking of level 50 content, really what is there? Gold Saucer, glam, pvp, and afking in limsa?

[Kandraxx]

What they really should do is to split the MSQ from each expac apart and implement some sort of hub where new players would be able to choose which story/expac to pursue. That would also mean that they make the absolute baseline like materia melding, mounts, travel, etc a default and not a ARR progression.

For example, in Guild Wars 2 (which also locks content behind story progression) you can just activate/deactivate storylines from different expacs via menu and at least go where you want. Want to hop directly into the newest thing? No problem and you're not really penalized or at a real disadvantage either.

Now, obviously that is gonna create some kinda paradox and inconsistencies, where you would go from someone dead to that someone being alive again and so. But I think that still would be a lot better than the current implementation, where newcomers are asked to play for ~200 hrs to get to the first 'beacon of light' (which I personally think is Stormblood) or to fork out 25 bucks for something they might not even continue to play in a weeks time.

[0blivion]

do the gacha game thing where it asks "hey this is spoilers do you wanna do this content anyway"