How much do you thing FF16, the graphics overhaul AND Ivelice Chronicles effected 14?

[Kirutsuki]

Without shadow of a doubt FF14 is struggling. The game lacks vision and innovation and probably needs a new leash on life. Something to strive for. It is not just "lack of content" I am personally fine with the patch content.

Im not here to really argue one way or another whether or not the current stuff is enough or not, but I am interested in seeing how people think these other projects effected 14?

On one hand Yoshi-P is stating the lack of resourcres or budget or whatever it is, but on the same token they are having this team make new games which more than likely takes attention away from 14.

But it's not like Yoshi-P can really control that either, the higher ups decide which of the staff go on what project.

It would be interesting to see if there's ANY overlap between FF14 staff and The Ivalice Chronicles and if there's like chance that people are doing it to get some experience to write better stories etc..?

I dunno... I personally just think that CS3 is dividing itself too thin trying to manage all the project they have and FF14 is suffering due to it.

And we don't want people to go full on cruch mode either just cause FF14 is suffering a little. It's just sad that we can't control how bussiness operate their staff.

[Auro_Seldaris]

You should also add the reworking of old content from ARR-SHB as part of that, because redesigning all of that most certainly had a knock-on effect on Endwalker and Dawntrail. And Shadowbringers too, if we're being honest. This game has been suffering for years and years now because of reworking old content instead of going forward, like Elder Scrolls Online , GW2, and WoW are doing.

To make a Warhammer analogy, people are sick of Space Marines because Games Workshop has spent the better part of the past 15 years redesigning them to modern sculpting, scale, and aesthetics. It started with the release of reworked Tactical, Devastator, and Assault Marines in 2012. Those models, while fine, were still in the old scale that made Marines look small due to the size creep of things like Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard. So even the new models were too small in comparison. In 2017, GW released Primaris Marines, a new version of Space Marines. The new models were taller, and had a more unified aesthetic, but this meant that now GW had to spend several years redoing all of the old units, after they just redid them a few years prior.

The upshot is this has led to other product lines suffering as GW has to take time to remake Space Marines for a second time in a row. Same thing for 14. There's no way the current expansions haven't suffered because of the desire/need to go back and redo old content.

[Kirutsuki]

You should also add the reworking of old content from ARR-SHB as part of that, because...

While I agree that redesigning old content Is probably part of it, I think redesigns are a necessity especially for FF14. And even somethinglike adding new features to old content (housing as an example).
As we've seen time and time again, whenever the team makes something brand spanking new the community is ALWAYS somewhat disappointed.

- Criterion Dungeons: Release response: Meh, at the end, pretty good.
- Island Sanctuary: Release response: Meh, at the end, also meh, but it had potential if they expanded it.
- And now a new Field Operation. Also mediocre response. Time will tell.

To some degree I would also add Chaotic here, but I think alot of people actually did enjoy it, but it was tuned way too difficult and is now religated to discord groups.

So when ever CS3 creates something new to the game it feels lacking one way or another, but when they add to an already exiting part of the game: ARR stuff etc. It's always a net positive for the game as a whole.
And generaly I do look at those as part of the expansion patch content even if it's not direct addition to expand the content.

A part of me doesn't want the devs to "keep going forward". Cause of the issues I laid out. Does that make sense?

[melbye]

FF16 and Ivalice, probably some but not much. The graphics overhaul on the other hand has probably been the biggest resource-drain the game has ever seen

[Jeeqbit]

So let's start by saying that the FF16 team began forming in Heavensward into Stormblood. They began hiring and training new team members and the veterans of the team became "Supervisors" ie. they worked on FF16 but peeked their head over to FF14 to give advice or approve things.

Throughout Stormblood, the new team members were being trained and developing content - yet it's widely regarded as one of the best expansions content-wise (Eureka, Savage, Ultimate) not to mention the new ideas they tried in the Extreme trials.

And then you had Shadowbringers, which in my opinion was also a great expansion, again being developed by newer developers since many were working on FF16 by this point.

Then Endwalker came about and we had Covid. Everyone made a wild assumption that Endwalker's content was affected by FF16, despite that you could see from the trailer and original release date that FF16 was pretty much COMPLETE through most of Endwalker. Meaning almost all those team members working on FF16 didn't have much to do and would have had plenty of time for other projects, such as FF14. They only needed a small number to remain for the DLC from what I recall reading, since all the work on the core systems of the game were done ie. battle system, engine, etc.

If you did an actual measurement on the development, Endwalker had about as much content as other expansions. People didn't feel that was the case primarily because they were not interested in the content, not because there was less of it. Island Sanctuary, for example, clearly took substantial development effort similar to Ishgard Restoration, but a lot of people wouldn't have cared for it. Variant dungeons clearly took substantial development effort, but because you did the routes 12 times then that was it, it didn't seem like much - the issue was that it wasn't made into dynamic, replayable content. Criterion clearly took substantial development effort, but due to it being high-end content and people feeling it wasn't rewarding enough, a lot of people did not "count" it as content. They also made another Ocean Fishing map and some Crystalline Conflict maps - I doubt anyone noticed that, but that is a lot of development resources as well. They also revamped all the old MSQ dungeon battles and some solo duties, which was also development resources, but once again players didn't see this as content they cared about.

So you see, Endwalker had all this development effort going on. The problem was that many players did not care about what was developed, or didn't notice it. Where development was affected, I think it was much more due to the effects of Covid delaying asset creation and things like that, particularly around its earlier patches.

And Dawntrail genuinely has the most content of any expansion in the entire history of the game. We've had some of these things, but never all of it together in one expansion. We are getting everything this expansion that we've ever had in any prior expansion and more: 13 dungeons, 7 trials/extremes, 5 unreals, 12 normal/savage raids, 3 alliance raids, 2 ultimates, 1 chaotic, 2 field operations and their 2+ raids (not sure if we'll get something else), 1 deep dungeon, 1 challenging boss after beating DD, 3 variant/criterion/criterion savage, 4 cosmic exploration areas, a new limited job, (although nobody cares, new pvp maps and revamped ARR dungeons)

In regards to them developing themselves thin, I have watched their career recruitment page for years. They have been hiring battle developers for years. And it makes sense - they need them to develop what I listed above for Dawntrail. All the battle staff they've been hiring for years are culminating in all the raid content they've been developing in Dawntrail. Last I checked, they were still hiring them and even advertised it at the live letter. They do hire quest writers fairly often too, but it's important to mention this is probably for sidequests; they obviously are very selective about who works on the MSQ.

You asked if the graphics update has affected development, but I can say that throughout Endwalker they were hiring lots of graphics engineers in anticipation of the graphics update and have still been doing that. I imagine they hired loads by now. Obviously they will have set them to work upscaling assets and things like that. Given they've hired so many graphics engineers, it makes sense to get a few of them to upscale old games like Ivalice Chronicles.

(In case you don't believe me about them hiring, you can see it on archive.org of their recruitment page over the years)

In regards to the recent mention of cost, he actually meant development cost, not financial cost. It was another way of saying he just made the wrong decision and didn't plan a normal version of FT. I doubt they would be hiring so much if cost was the issue, and just so there's no confusion, these hires are specifically for FFXIV (and show its logo), or specifically reference "long-time 10 year MMORPG", and clearly make reference to CBU3 or its location.

[Kirutsuki]

So let's start by saying that the FF16 team began forming in Heavensward into Stormblood. They began....

Yea I know development takes along time. Hard to say if it was at the start f Heavensward when FF16 team becan forming. Feels a bit far away, but I'm not an expert. Surely they were cooking something, but probably wasn't "FF16" at those days, but a new FF none-the-less.

Then Endwalker came about and we had Covid. Everyone made a wild assumption...

This to me is interesting, not from the perspective of if the content was good/enough in endwalker, but that there are all these narratives that we as a community kind of come up with as the "truth". Despite not actually being there and seeing what's going on.
Be it covid or FF16, heck even this topic itself leans on the idea of trying to figure out what is effecting FF14. Maybe there is some truth where development was effected, but it is really hard to say if it actually did or not.
What you point out however is actually something else thats interesting, people seem to be rather disappointed when the devs ADD now types of content that feel half-assed and don't fulfill the ultimate need.
Do you think it's an issue that instead of adding into a already existing deep dungeon we get new deep dungeons or field operations? Always starting fresh which disappoints people?

And Dawntrail genuinely has the most content of any expansion in the entire history of the game...

I am glad to hear this. I personally already liked EW despite at the end of it there was almsot nothing to satiate people, but it was good for a relatively casual player.
I think DT patch content shows promise, but it's repeating the same mistakes EW did, adding NEW instances, new fresh systems instead of taking something that already works and adding to it right?

In regards to them developing themselves thin, I have watched their career recruitment page for years....

I mean yea I do know they hire alot of people pretty actively and I'm happy to hear it seems even more active than I knew it'd be. But also apparently there was an interview with SE CEO stating that they; "know it's all "bad" and they are overworking CS3, but that it will all be better in the long run?" I can't find a source on this though.

In regards to the recent mention of cost, he actually meant development cost, not financial cost. It was...

Ah I see. So it's just another case of lost in translation.

[Jeeqbit]

Yea I know development takes along time. Hard to say if it was at the start f Heavensward when FF16 team becan forming. Feels a bit far away, but I'm not an expert. Surely they were cooking something, but probably wasn't "FF16" at those days, but a new FF none-the-less.

It was FF16. But Yoshi-P wanted to sit on the story and let it cook over some years, rather than try to rush one. So a lot of those years was just very slowly brainstorming the story. It's known that much of the team was the Heavensward team though and you can see some similarities and you can see how over time they got credited as mere supervisors on one or the other.

Do you think it's an issue that instead of adding into a already existing deep dungeon we get new deep dungeons or field operations? Always starting fresh which disappoints people?

I don't think always starting fresh is an issue. I actually like it because it's a new story, a new aesthetic, and I need that after 2 years or so. For example, Stormblood was the Japanese aesthetic but after 2 years I needed a new aesthetic, rather than just seeing more Japanese style stuff.

But I think it is an issue that old things rarely get revisited or improved. I understand why, because it makes sense from a business perspective to focus on the new content - the new raids, dungeons, MSQ. That's what will make people resubscribe and login. Revamping old things won't particularly do that in a big way.

However, not revisiting old things much or adding much Quality of Life (we get maybe 5 per patch currently) gradually bothers people more and more and I think that helps add to people's frustrations about the game. They can forgive a few QoL issues but as more of them build up from old things they added, it gets frustrating that it's not revisited and improved a little.

SE CEO stating that they; "know it's all "bad" and they are overworking CS3, but that it will all be better in the long run?" I can't find a source on this though.

They were saying about how Yoshi-P is juggling multiple roles. But at the end of the day, he's a producer and director. The producer just has a spreadsheet and assigns resources. For example, this task will have this employee for 14 days and they take this much of the financial budget. Etc. Doing the spreadsheets for multiple games isn't necessarily that big of a deal.

In the case of FF16, although he was producer (spreadsheet/resource person), he had someone else be director so he could focus on FF14. Director is the more hands on part of the role because it's overseeing the actual content, story, design, testing it, making sure it's JUST right, etc. So it makes sense that he didn't make himself do that for FF16, since his primary focus is FF14 obviously.

[Kirutsuki]

It was FF16....

So in your eyes then how is FF14 fairing? It sounds to me like you're thinking everything is pretty stable, understanding that hiccups come and go and the devs adjust to given situations.
Is there things that 14 could focus more on or places the devs could take time away from in order to really help 14. Cause the devs themselves have said that they know there's an issue with 14 currently.
Where is that issue in your mind and how to approach it?

[Jeeqbit]

So in your eyes then how is FF14 fairing?

I mean, functionally, it's fine. They produce the usual content and I do it as I have for 10 years. It's worth noting that if I ask people in the game, they tend to mostly say that exact same thing. If I wasn't getting tired of a new dungeon, a new trial, a new ex, a new beast tribe 8, 6 or 2 years ago, why would I now?

I do wish all the things I mentioned like QoL would be better, but I've felt that way for most of the games life really.

The server processing speed is measurably slower than I think it should in 2025, there are arbitrary limits they could probably get away with increasing like buffs, the friends list loads a few players at a time and doesn't let me add notes, menus have got congested over the years and could be merged, the default settings aren't good for new players, the game lets me click players when I'm trying to click a hotbar button, targeting isn't good, houses are still a problem after 12 years and wards could just reflect active players, it's hard to discern inactive players in CWLS or on friends list, every feature tends to require unlocking its first iteraton such as ARR+HW hunts and Stone Sky Sea, doing content MINE isn't incentivised with Faux Hollows, dungeons aren't reused to make random buffed up versions of them for fun, no NA<>EU travel, no cross-DC interaction, etc.

There are so many little things like that. And it's really just Quality of Life stuff. You can ignore a few things, but as the game grows, more and more of it is needed.

But really, life isn't perfect. Nothing is perfect. If it's not gonna address things like this, then it's just not. No point dwelling on it too much. In life you can focus on negative things or positive things. The amount of effort is the same but one of them probably makes you happier. And if even your best efforts can't find some joy to cling to, then it might not be worth playing it.

It sounds to me like you're thinking everything is pretty stable, understanding that hiccups come and go and the devs adjust to given situations.

I'm an understanding person and I've programming experience so I try to bring that understanding. Actually even before I knew any programming, I would try to think logically about how a game would function behind the scenes as a child. In retrospect, I was pretty spot on, it just requires thinking logically about how the events would come together behind the scenes.

Occasionally that experience makes me agree that the task is challenging, but there are a lot of times where I know I could solve it pretty fast and am struggling to understand why it remains an issue for years.

Where is that issue in your mind and how to approach it?

I think they meant there was an issue with too many emergency maintenances needed for things like localization, Mech Ops, etc.

But in general I think they need to be less rigid and allow more free-flowing development so that developers can just improve random things of their own accord and be encouraged to do it, even if they seek approvals after identifying what they want to improve. From what I've seen, when they've done this previously they've gone behind Yoshi-P's back and sneaked it into a patch, and that actually included flying in ARR and Viera/Hrothgar glasses. Arguably, they shouldn't have to sneak it in. They should feel able to do it and get approval for their passionate improvements.

I don't know their procedures, but if they get out a designer for every little thing, then I think they should not bother with a designer unless it's actually needed. If adding a little Quality of Life setting requires a full on design document and presentation, then it would be no wonder why they don't bother with QoL much.

[Catwho]

Ah I see. So it's just another case of lost in translation.

In this case it's lost in translation from software development and project management speak to consumer speak. An English speaking manager would have used the same terms.

Those of us in project management who heard "it would cost too much" knew immediately that he meant resources, not necessarily money. Project management 101 in business school teaches you about the Iron Triangle: Scope (what we want to accomplish), Time (how long we have to accomplish it), and Resources (how much money, people, and physical facilities we have available.) When scope increases, then one of the other two parts of the triangle are going to have to increase - either you need to give it more time, or you need to throw more resources at it. They made the decision to not increase the scope of Forked Tower, so they could deliver it on time and not divert people away from other projects. Which is the kind of hard decision that a project manager often has to make.

Should the XIV team have more devs on it? Yeah. Would hiring more devs last year have made it possible to do an EZ mode of Forked Tower? Probably not. Would hiring more developers 3 years ago have made it possible? Yes.

I firmly believe that SE really is starving its own internal teams of the resources that they need to do their best work. The result is that the remaining teams are overworked, and underperforming.

Hire more bodies for 8.0 now.