Lack of Gear progression

[Valence]

That was the worst part of Diadem. Doing all that work for the bis weapon only for it to roll only accuracy and nothing else.
No, random substats belong in the trash.

1) Diadem 1.0 gear appeared in the odd patch following Gordias, where Gordias was already obsolete, but with it offering i210 items I do hear the complaint about it and that's probably why SE only used i265 gear for the second Diadem in 3.55 instead of BiS item level (even though they fucked up big time with the i280 coven weapons).

2) What I wrote never mentioned it to be BiS for savage competition, and in fact I'm pretty sure I mentioned that savage could disable all those perks anyway. This was strictly proposed within the confines of casual content. You even quoted the part where I specifically say "Savage loot could also have fixed, by design perks (not rng) that keep it better than even tome gear or anything casual", so I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.

3) By definition there is no BIS if substats are rng, except perhaps an absolute mathematical maximum that is unreachable anyway. Which is perfectly fine in casual content and improves shelf life dramatically.

[Valence]

I'd advocate for more player choice and consistency over progression systems.

We need both.

Alternatives are great for flexibility and gearing up horizontally especially when it comes to alt jobs, etc, but also to offer more options with gear stats and effects. Progression is mandatory in any MMO built around RPG gear systems because that's a core part of what drives players ahead as people naturally want to get stronger, find new exotic things and loot, and that's what gives the game its shelf life as well.

I do not like the idea of just getting one's gear for free with no playtime put behind because as Cheez said above, you could just remove all gear at this point, it would solve you the headache.

[Alahard]

1) Diadem 1.0 gear appeared in the odd patch following Gordias, where Gordias was already obsolete, but with it offering i210 items I do hear the complaint about it and that's probably why SE only used i265 gear for the second Diadem in 3.55 instead of BiS item level (even though they fucked up big time with the i280 coven weapons).

2) What I wrote never mentioned it to be BiS for savage competition, and in fact I'm pretty sure I mentioned that savage could disable all those perks anyway. This was strictly proposed within the confines of casual content. You even quoted the part where I specifically say "Savage loot could also have fixed, by design perks (not rng) that keep it better than even tome gear or anything casual", so I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.

3) By definition there is no BIS if substats are rng, except perhaps an absolute mathematical maximum that is unreachable anyway. Which is perfectly fine in casual content and improves shelf life dramatically.

Even when it's not BIS, this game has a really bad time dealing with specific substats.

Throwing around random skillspeed/spellspeed when classes like PLD exist is just a disaster.

But more importantly, it's not even useful if it's only applied at the lower level.

Lets only allow the casual players get frustrated over their loot while the hardcore gets a clear progression path? Oh god. Both sides would be up in arms. Again.

The better solution is adding alternative gearing to more engaging casual content, and adding an upgrade path through that into near savage loot.

For example -> lets say OC had a DLL equivalent. Having the +2 gear out of it ( and +3 on the FT we currently got) upgrade IL outside of instance along with inside would be an improvement.
Allowing dungeon gear to feed into the upgrade path by converting items into currency ( like silver) would also give some use for those items.

Now you have a clear path, you know what substats you are getting, and it's not nearly as bounded by the RNG gods.

[Nadda]

We need both.

Alternatives are great for flexibility and gearing up horizontally especially when it comes to alt jobs, etc, but also to offer more options with gear stats and effects. Progression is mandatory in any MMO built around RPG gear systems because that's a core part of what drives players ahead as people naturally want to get stronger, find new exotic things and loot, and that's what gives the game its shelf life as well.

I do not like the idea of just getting one's gear for free with no playtime put behind because as Cheez said above, you could just remove all gear at this point, it would solve you the headache.

I don't know about removing gear progression.

Like I said I enjoy how gearing is in FF14 to get people into high end content.

I want that horizontal content both as catch-up but also to test the mettle for our Hardcore raiders who already got their savage gear. To me Criterion is good for this because of it's boss gauntlet style - I actually consider it to be almost pseudo ultimate.

Criterion - second source of raid equivalent Gear. (and maybe even a means to upgrade savage gear you get from the savage raid)
Variant - weekly casual pity system to get the same gear over a longer period.

You remove progression entirely it sort of makes doing difficult content just for the sake of it kinda pointless. I simply want other sources and other content for people to sink their teeth into. Variant especially for casuals because you can do it solo or with friends, and allows players of all ranges more options.

The way how FF14 gearing is to get people into the raid on our even number patches... I want to make it so that people can experience equal or slightly further progression on the odd patches, so there's always something.

Jump in when you want. That's FF14's strength. I want to multiply that feeling so that no matter when you are playing FF14 you can find ways of doing things for your character that are both easily accessible but can also test your mettle that expand the number of ways players can engage with content and progress alt jobs it creates more social cohesion and activity to have progression. Not because of a hamster wheel but more like different modes of completeness for your character. Give everyone a sense of accomplishment however they choose to do it. A multi-lane highway for player agency, without turning it into a forced treadmill

I know it's possible. And I wish I could get the devs ear for it.

[Valence]

Even when it's not BIS, this game has a really bad time dealing with specific substats.

Throwing around random skillspeed/spellspeed when classes like PLD exist is just a disaster.

But more importantly, it's not even useful if it's only applied at the lower level.

Lets only allow the casual players get frustrated over their loot while the hardcore gets a clear progression path? Oh god. Both sides would be up in arms. Again.

The better solution is adding alternative gearing to more engaging casual content, and adding an upgrade path through that into near savage loot.

For example -> lets say OC had a DLL equivalent. Having the +2 gear out of it ( and +3 on the FT we currently got) upgrade IL outside of instance along with inside would be an improvement.
Allowing dungeon gear to feed into the upgrade path by converting items into currency ( like silver) would also give some use for those items.

Now you have a clear path, you know what substats you are getting, and it's not nearly as bounded by the RNG gods.

Why do you need a clear path and a path to what? We're not talking about binary atmas. We're not talking about rng into BiS. We're talking about a limitless loop of casual gearing. Check out the borderlands model if you're not convinced.

Reading those two last answers honestly make me feel like I have no idea where you both are coming from with your replies. Extremely puzzling to read, sorry.

[BigCheez]

Even when it's not BIS, this game has a really bad time dealing with specific substats.

Throwing around random skillspeed/spellspeed when classes like PLD exist is just a disaster.

But more importantly, it's not even useful if it's only applied at the lower level.

Lets only allow the casual players get frustrated over their loot while the hardcore gets a clear progression path? Oh god. Both sides would be up in arms. Again.

The better solution is adding alternative gearing to more engaging casual content, and adding an upgrade path through that into near savage loot.

For example -> lets say OC had a DLL equivalent. Having the +2 gear out of it ( and +3 on the FT we currently got) upgrade IL outside of instance along with inside would be an improvement.
Allowing dungeon gear to feed into the upgrade path by converting items into currency ( like silver) would also give some use for those items.

Now you have a clear path, you know what substats you are getting, and it's not nearly as bounded by the RNG gods.

Why would casual players be frustrated?

What do people need savage ilvl loot for if they aren't doing savage? You don't need savage gear for savage, never mind normal mode content.

[MetaBoi]

Instead of AF gear (since it is per job basis) they could use the the gear you can buy with the non-capped tomestones (Neo-Kingdom for this expac) and upgrade through other content. Or even make it augmentable with the augmentation items.

And for making the dungeon gear the same ilvl as crafted gear but with random substats. I think that would piss off crafters more than raiding folks as any gear that doesn't have High Crit would be farmed from dungeon instead or to add something else to craft for gearing process. If I were to implement the random substats idea I would make the dungeon gear have their high stat to be fixed but their lower stat to be random + no materia could be affixed to it. If not, any gear that doesn't have crit as a sub-stat would get abondened. But I think the core idea is fine, should be fun to iterate it among ourselves!

[Alahard]

Why do you need a clear path and a path to what? We're not talking about binary atmas. We're not talking about rng into BiS. We're talking about a limitless loop of casual gearing. Check out the borderlands model if you're not convinced.

Reading those two last answers honestly make me feel like I have no idea where you both are coming from with your replies. Extremely puzzling to read, sorry.

Borderlands work because the entire game is structured to gain all kinds of wacky weapons and random raritys with tons of different stats. One second your using a rocket pistol, and the next a smg that spits acid and grenades.

It doesn't work in 14 because
1)Randomized gear in ff14 is : substats that don't change how you play. Except for one. That makes certain clases a hinderance to play if the value is not optimal. There is no exciting gameplay change when gaining +50 det.

2) Its not endless due to the fact there is only like 4 things gear can roll, and realistically it's only going to be dungeon gear. Which will get replaced with the tomegear anyways, which needs to have fixed stats.

3) Every time random gear has been added, its caused more complaints then its worth for the whole community.

A better "endless" form of gearing is alternate gearing, assuming square can get their OC/Bodja/Eureka equivalent out earlier, and proper. Long grinds that reflect in actual power gains both inside and outside that players can work towards.
Of course any better casual gearing system, requires the dev to make good casual content. So closer to bodja style mix of content, but introduce it on launch, build on it patch by patch, and allow other activities ( treasure maps for example) also assist in the process.

[Alahard]

Why would casual players be frustrated?

What do people need savage ilvl loot for if they aren't doing savage? You don't need savage gear for savage, never mind normal mode content.

While I agree that its not needed per say, thats not the goal of the gear.

The goal of the gear is to give a goal for those players to pursue. The goal just needs actual good content around it.

And as raiders, you need that player base to stick around because realistically they give a much larger share of the money to square than we do. More of them potentially means they can push more raiding content for us raiders.

[Ephremjlm]

As long as dailies are the most valid way of making the new player experience better, or leveling new jobs, then we will never get any kind of gear progression that feels good.

Dungeon gear will always be a waste of dev resources (for progression, some people like the glam), and it will always be a linear mess that for the most part unless you are parsing makes your character feel like its playing like its supposed to, as opposed to making your characters feel "more powerful". I mean FFS the skills we got in this expansion were almost nothing. The final Paladin rotation skill looks weaker than the Endwalker one lol.

That said if the devs said F it and wanted to make drastic changes, they could make it so tombs were used in something like artifact gear upgrades, and in between, different parts of content in dungeons, raids (yes including savage and ultimate), and the open world fates (normal and rare), had chances of dropping individual pieces of gear that were meaningful. This would give people a reason to WANT to do the different newer content. That said, they could go a step further and make certain harder to get pieces give really good stat boneses or skill bonuses but then they would have to actually try new things. But none of this will happen unless the incentive to MAKE old players do old content (which I might add is made to be obsolete the second you finish it) so new players think that the game is social and that old players necessarily want to be there while playing on classes above the content level with a lesser kit.