Please Share Updates on 8.0 Job Design

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

To be fair sacred soil in Japanese more correctly translates to “temporary fortress of safety” or “safety tactical camp”

Sounds like what an Asylum would look like-

Oh wait...

[CidHeiral]

I was thinking about this earlier today when running some stuff but I used to love bouncing between different jobs for different content. Even doing the usual roulettes would be a fun time on an engaging job, or if I'm challenging myself on something I don't play as much like old BLM. Now the jobs are so simple and homogenized I was looking at the job list earlier before queueing and had an overwhelming sense of apathy like "what's the point?" What a bummer.

[Mikey_R]

In terms of animation, VFX and SFX, let's not pretend the past actions were any better. Even going back to Paladin's Savage Blade, the animation was 1 horizontal slash, but the VFX showed 3 slashes done at the same time. Take a look at Monk's The Forbidden Chakra, you mean to tell me those first 2 weak punches have the same energy that the SFX is giving off? How about Twin Snakes? Has anyone actually looked at the animation? The WoL is crouching, arms outstretched, barely infront of the front leg, with their wrists bent backwards and head looking to the floor. It is nonsense.

As for the comment on Dragoon's Coerthan Torment, 1 'slash' having multiple effects isn't uncommon, Fast Blade for example has at least 2 'slashes' per slash, but it also isn't the first time 1 slash has had multiple slashes even for Dragoon, Fang and Claw, the first part is one upwards slash with 3 separate 'waves', then the thrust has multiple effects of different designs. If you want the best one though, Samurai's Higanbana has zero slashes and yet produces multiple effects (if you check the animation, the sword never leaves the scabbard).

Now this isn't to say they couldn't do better, but to act like it is only fairly recently the animations have sometimes been slightly off is a bit disingenuous.

[ty_taurus]

On the topic of animation, I guess since I’m the Sage junkie, my biggest gripe with Sage’s animations is I feel like the attack animations aren’t really capitalizing on the “cool factor” of a sci-fi laser mage.

Dosis is fine on its own but hideous and choppy when casted repeatedly. Theres no grace or fluidity. Dyskrasia is very bland, and I’m not a fan of the point blank AOE route for healer trash mob buttons.

Toxikon and Toxikon II are quite different and both animations are very nice. It’s just a shame II replaces I instead of being something different.

Pneuma is fantastic, but it’s not really a DPS action so I never see it. Not that it’s a bad healing action or anything, but in normal content I am drowning in Addersgall that I’m desperate to find uses for, so I never have room to fit Pneuma into my healing plan outside of savage.

I don’t like Psyche’s animation. I just see a giant holy circle which isn’t the vibe I want especially when I’m starved for DPS actions. The DOTs are… inoffensive, but otherwise unremarkable.

It’s a shame that all of Sage’s best animations rarely get used. Phlegma is great, but I feel like the ranged visuals are lacking in style and grace for what Sage sees most of the time. I’d really like to see more style in DPS coming from Sage in the future. Something I’ve talked about in the healer discord is wanting to feel more like Nu-13. Another example would be taking some inspiration from Nier Automata’s pod attacks.

All that said, if the gameplay remains dull and monotonous, animations can’t fix that. And I worry that whatever 8.0 has in store will end up being all show and no substance as others have said. It’s what their current design philosophy implies will be the case.

[ForsakenRoe]

On the topic of animation, I guess since I’m the Sage junkie, my biggest gripe with Sage’s animations is I feel like the attack animations aren’t really capitalizing on the “cool factor” of a sci-fi laser mage.

Dosis is fine on its own but hideous and choppy when casted repeatedly. Theres no grace or fluidity. Dyskrasia is very bland, and I’m not a fan of the point blank AOE route for healer trash mob buttons.

On the subject of Dyskrasia's animation...

Spoilers for some 7.2 content (in case OP hasn't done that content/seen it yet)

Howling Blade's second phase has a 'deal damage to all nearby enemies' kind of attack, where he does an in/out (here's the 'in' version, and here's the 'out' version). Why couldn't we do something like that, and have our nouliths just orbit us in a ring, while emitting energy in a sort of blade? Why do we do this... Gatorade rain dance? I suppose the 'in' version is kinda similar to what Toxikon 1's animation does, but that gets overwritten by Toxikon 2 pretty quickly via levelling.

In fact, the combination of how relatively simple each mechanic is in P8S phase 1, combined with the sheer speed at which he chains them back to back, is exactly the vibe I wish that SGE had in its gameplay. Effortlessly weaving Kardia amplifying abilities like Soteria, throwing out Addersgall moves to mitigate and heal like Kerachole and Ixochole, and all while throwing out constant attacks of our own to keep on the offensive. I wish that, when Metem comments on his speed, that I could say 'Yeh, he's fast. But keep your eyes peeled, Ref, cos I'm even faster', and that be reflected in my gameplay

I think that certain actions could stand to have a bit more... 'randomness' to their animation? For example, let's imagine that we have a new action for Sage, where the nouliths 'slash' the target with energy beams. Rather than the path of the noulith being the same each time, if there was some variance in the angle at which they slashed, such that each time the animation played it was a little different, it'd break up the visual fatigue a bit despite being 'the same button'

Another example would be something like Broil, something with multiple projectiles. Not every one of Broil's fireballs needs to hit at the same time, do they? What if, sometimes they all hit at once, but sometimes they hit in sequence, or in pairs, etc?

What if the animation was modified slightly, when we got a Crit? For example, Broil again, what if a Crit had the fireballs all meet before hitting the enemy, combine into one bigger fireball and then slam into the target? The natural randomness of 'whether we crit or not' would make 'when the different animation appears' more unpredictable, and seeing it go off during the burst window gives an immediate feedback to the player that 'hey, special animation, you hit big number' rather than looking for how many exclamation marks follow the damage number in the floating text

[ty_taurus]

You know, one question I'd love to ask Yoshi P directly is: "If you let players choose which version of Astrologian to use for the job moving forward, which version of Astrologian do you think they would pick?"

[Chasingstars]

SCH is the job where the designer puts on a blindfold and throws a dart at a board and whatever the dart hits is what you get. I still remember how memed on SCH got in the EW job preview where nobody could tell what they got except what looked like a sprint.

Also I would pick HW AST.

[ForsakenRoe]

I still remember how memed on SCH got in the EW job preview where nobody could tell what they got except what looked like a sprint.

As an example of 'animations sell the class/job fantasy', we got Glare 4 this expansion, 3 uses of a strong hitting instantcast spell per 2mins.

But imagine if instead it was Tornado, Flood and Quake as each of the 3 hits. I would expect that, 'more twinkly lights' wouldn't have as much 'impact' in the player's minds during the reveal, as 'you get some of the long-lost Elemental aspect of the Job's identity again, also it hits like a truck because it's the 'ultimate' spell of that element'. Each of the three spells would also, due to being seperate actions (instead of Glare 4, 3 times), would be able to have slightly different effects. For example, Tornado could deal part of its damage as a DOT (and because it's AOE, this means being able to DOT a pack of mobs in a dungeon)

People were very excited for SGE when it was revealed, precisely for this reason. They saw Pneuma, it's a big fat laser that has a chargeup time, and we got excited cos it looks like it hits hard and that's cool. Turns out it hits hard with green numbers, but the point stands

As for AST versions, probably the one I wrote, no bias here no sir

If not that, then probably HW AST, but specifically 3.2's version. The 3.4 version was far too strong

[ty_taurus]

If we are getting some sort of horizontal skill system, having some horizontal cosmetic options could be nice as well, and the least they could do for white mage would be allow you to choose between earth/wind/water or light/light/light animations. Maybe drop Stone II at level 16 so the Stone I animation can see actual content, and just adjust potencies. You have Stone 1 till level 54, Stone II till level 64, then you can pivot to Glare or Stone III at level 72, and finally Glare III or Stone IV at level 82, as an example.

Of course, actual gameplay would be appreciated with a new progression system as is the bigger focus of the thread, but why not both?

[ForsakenRoe]

It would be kind of cool if they incorporated the 'job system changes' into the story/lore like something happens that causes all soul crystals to evolve somehow.

If they hadn't rushed ahead and done EW so soon, I think this would be very easy to write around. As far as I've heard, they were going to do an expansion between SHB/EW focused on Garlemald. Which would have been cool, cos then Anima could have been the final boss of the expansion instead of a dungeon boss (and the reveal as to what Anima 'is' would be a great pre-final fight reveal cutscene). Then, EW would have been level 100 and simultaneously ended the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc of the story.

If it were up to me, I'd have done that 'in between SHB/EW' expansion, so that Garlemald and the surrounding regions got to have the worldbuilding that they deserved. I'd then have had all of the reveals, media tour, Job Action Trailer etc. for Endwalker, all say that 'at the end of the story of the expansion, you'll be level 99. Some older FF games, the level cap was 99, some it was 100. We decided on 99, because we're big fans of FF5 and in that game, the cap was 99'. But, for the final fight, due to the power of Dynamis, you'd reach level 100 and gain access to the level 100 action (as a Duty Action), a completely new move that was never revealed, and nobody outside of the dev team even knew was in the game. Warriors learning they've got Primal Rend, Samurai learning they have Ogi Namikiri, etc, and being able to throw them out every, say, 20s because it's a Duty Action. And each time one of the Scions chimes in with their motivational 'power of the indomitable human spirit' speech, rather than a mere damage up buff, I'd have it give you more and more levels. Level 105, 100, 110, 120, 150, and the player's damage numbers getting higher and higher, until we're hitting truly absurd numbers. Fell Cleaves and Midare's hitting for literal millions. And after the credits roll and you get to play the post-story part of the game, you'd return to level 99 (to avoid spoiling other players on the twist), but retain the level 100 skill as part of your kit, albeit in its current, more 'limited' form. The power of Dynamis let you spam it in the final fight, but in regular combat, that'd take too much of a toll

Which is to say, after the events of Endwalker, they'd be able to say 'ah yes due to the exposure to the pure Dynamis in the last battle, the Aether of the Soul Crystal has warped, and certain limits can be broken, which in gameplay terms means that you can choose to 'break the limits' on some of your actions and empower them with shorter cooldowns, stronger power, or even completely new bonus effects'. Now we've got Dawntrail, so I guess maybe they could use 'Solution9/Alexandria's research into souls' as the narrative device in place of 'Dynamis'

If we are getting some sort of horizontal skill system, having some horizontal cosmetic options could be nice as well, and the least they could do for white mage would be allow you to choose between earth/wind/water or light/light/light animations. Maybe drop Stone II at level 16 so the Stone I animation can see actual content, and just adjust potencies. You have Stone 1 till level 54, Stone II till level 64, then you can pivot to Glare or Stone III at level 72, and finally Glare III or Stone IV at level 82, as an example.

This is pretty much 1:1 how I'd solve BLU's dilemma of people wanting to main it as a 'real job', while also preserving what makes BLU, BLU (the learning). Have a baseline kit of actions, and then make the learnable spells be alternative VFX that you can use, with their bonus effects being activated within Carnivale, or while Unsync. I went through the whole list of learnable actions for the Job ages ago, to try and categorize them into one of 24 categories, and found that like half of the spells fit into one of just FIVE categories: ST attack, circle around enemy attack, circle around player attack, cone AOE attack, line AOE attack. Being able to choose not only our Glamour, but our VFX theme to match it (eg a Fire themed BLU that uses lots of oranges/reds in their Glam, or a Tech BLU that uses Drill Cannons, Kaltstrahl, Perpetual Ray etc, with the new S9/Vanguard style gear), would provide players even more options for creativity