Please Share Updates on 8.0 Job Design

[Daralii]

But how many of those new players are up in arms against the true root of the problem, which is full steam trying to turn the game into a twitchy action game? I feel like every time this gets mentioned it just displays the unbridgeable gap between the two generations, and even among vets there is a lot that don't see the problem.

It's such a baffling decision because of how much lag is deliberately built into the game. Even if you live inside a server complex in Tokyo, there's still enough unavoidable delay to get nonsensical snapshots.

[ty_taurus]

But how many of those new players are up in arms against the true root of the problem, which is full steam trying to turn the game into a twitchy action game? I feel like every time this gets mentioned it just displays the unbridgeable gap between the two generations, and even among vets there is a lot that don't see the problem.

I've seen players come and go here on these forums over the last several years who look at job design from before Endwalker/Shadowbringers and agree that the current state is bad. How many are as vocal as me and some of the others? Hard to say. ASkellington I believe has mentioned starting XIV in Shadowbringers, and is extremely vocal about his disgust regarding Astrologian and stating his desire to see Stormblood Astro return despite not having been here when it was live. That's anecdotal of course, but we don't have a census on this sort of data so I couldn't tell you the breakdown of who's new and who isn't. From my experience it seems a little mixed.

The reason why not everyone sees it as a problem is because not all players get enjoyment out of the same aspects of the game. Whether you're an old veteran, a newbie, or somewhere in between, what you value in an MMO like XIV can vary. Maybe it's job/class design, or maybe its encounter design. Maybe it's roleplay, grind, collecting rewards, achievement hunting, etc. For many of those players where job design is not the focal point of their enjoyment of XIV, it almost doesn't matter what you do to a job as long as it doesn't halt them from progressing steadily. Which I'll repeat for the people in the back: wasn't ever the case even in Heavensward. I think a lot of those players recognize that job design is in the toilet but it's not a big enough issue to them because at the end of the day, the encounters are still fun, the glamour is still exciting to collect, or whatever else appeals to that person more. They don't oppose change, but don't fight for it either. But there does feel like there's a tumor of people who dig their feet in the sand and yell "Well I don't see a problem so there isn't one!" Even when the solution doesn't need to conflict with their enjoyment no matter how much they fear it might.

[mallleable]

My mindset is that if ffxiv's combat wants to be more like an action game then I should be using my feedback to help it become a better action game rather than condemn it for trying. So I try to compare jobs to how their weapons are handled in other action or action-adjacent games knowing it will have to be translated into ffxiv's GCD, and tab-targeting system. So with all the complaints about 'DDR' fights, I think there is a certain amount of 'working as intended' at play, and it presents the problem of how to make 'DDR fights' not feel like 'DDR fights which could be solved with more game dev slight of hand, but I think we're at the point where job design is the missing component.

[Rolder50]

Changes in 8.0:

All jobs get 1 or 2 new buttons that do damage and have no interaction with the rest of the kit, probably as extra combo finishers on 2 minute cooldowns

Tanks somehow get more self healing

Healers get more big heals they don't need

There, I have predicted 8.0, you are welcome.

[Laerune]

Since they don't have enough funding, we can expect minimum work.

[Aravell]

I've seen a lot of people blame "DDR fights" whenever talk about jobs comes up, but what's the exact definition of it? I don't think anyone has defined what a DDR fight means?

What I personally think ruined job design is 'team jump rope mechanics', some examples:

- Instead of being allowed to stand and cast heals, the healer now must jump rope in tempo with the rest of the party, so now they get more and more instant heals because they're not allowed to stand still.
- Instead of the physical ranged helping the BLM take a mechanic so the BLM can continue casting, the BLM is now forced to jump rope with everyone else, so no more casting, you get more instant casts now.
- If the tank moves to jump rope with the rest of the party, the boss might follow the tank and cause the melee grief, so now the boss is only allowed to stand in the middle and chaincast mechanics and not autoattack.

It's the departure from role mechanics that slowly encroaches upon and eventually ruins job design for me personally, every role does the same thing now, every role jumps the same rope. There's very few remaining unique struggles for each role, so every job basically feels the same when you do a fight.

[Saraide]

I've seen a lot of people blame "DDR fights" whenever talk about jobs comes up, but what's the exact definition of it? I don't think anyone has defined what a DDR fight means?

What I personally think ruined job design is 'team jump rope mechanics', some examples:

- Instead of being allowed to stand and cast heals, the healer now must jump rope in tempo with the rest of the party, so now they get more and more instant heals because they're not allowed to stand still.
- Instead of the physical ranged helping the BLM take a mechanic so the BLM can continue casting, the BLM is now forced to jump rope with everyone else, so no more casting, you get more instant casts now.
- If the tank moves to jump rope with the rest of the party, the boss might follow the tank and cause the melee grief, so now the boss is only allowed to stand in the middle and chaincast mechanics and not autoattack.

It's the departure from role mechanics that slowly encroaches upon and eventually ruins job design for me personally, every role does the same thing now, every role jumps the same rope. There's very few remaining unique struggles for each role, so every job basically feels the same when you do a fight.

I think there is a huge amount of overlap between what people call DDR and what you call team jump rope. The relativity mechanics from e12s are imo prime example of DDR mechanics.

[Valence]

I've seen a lot of people blame "DDR fights" whenever talk about jobs comes up, but what's the exact definition of it? I don't think anyone has defined what a DDR fight means?

What I personally think ruined job design is 'team jump rope mechanics', some examples:

- Instead of being allowed to stand and cast heals, the healer now must jump rope in tempo with the rest of the party, so now they get more and more instant heals because they're not allowed to stand still.
- Instead of the physical ranged helping the BLM take a mechanic so the BLM can continue casting, the BLM is now forced to jump rope with everyone else, so no more casting, you get more instant casts now.
- If the tank moves to jump rope with the rest of the party, the boss might follow the tank and cause the melee grief, so now the boss is only allowed to stand in the middle and chaincast mechanics and not autoattack.

It's the departure from role mechanics that slowly encroaches upon and eventually ruins job design for me personally, every role does the same thing now, every role jumps the same rope. There's very few remaining unique struggles for each role, so every job basically feels the same when you do a fight.

That sounds about right.
But it goes further than that. There is also a general surge of mobility and twitchy action mechanics with visual cues to look at everywhere, where time spent moving or running all around is ramping up and up and up dramatically. I do main rphys jobs, and I don't have uptime problems (although the role has one of the poorest mobility those days except DNC), and it still pisses me off to no end.
That's what Mao called I believe "frogs in a blender". I think the image is apt enough, at least for me.

[AmiableApkallu]

I've seen a lot of people blame "DDR fights" whenever talk about jobs comes up, but what's the exact definition of it? I don't think anyone has defined what a DDR fight means?

DDR is simply a game of "see queue on screen, take the one correct action or lose points." In the FFXIV incarnation, the primary problem is that the sequence of queues is static. It's... jump rope, sure.

- Instead of being allowed to stand and cast heals, the healer now must jump rope in tempo with the rest of the party, so now they get more and more instant heals because they're not allowed to stand still.
- Instead of the physical ranged helping the BLM take a mechanic so the BLM can continue casting, the BLM is now forced to jump rope with everyone else, so no more casting, you get more instant casts now.
- If the tank moves to jump rope with the rest of the party, the boss might follow the tank and cause the melee grief, so now the boss is only allowed to stand in the middle and chaincast mechanics and not autoattack.

Of these examples, the first two points are more about the "team" in "team jump rope." Only the last actually gets at "jump rope" (DDR), because it's the only one that speaks to things going off script.

For example: When does healing become fun? When things go sideways. Jumping a rope is still jumping a rope, whether its my own rope or one shared by the team. The primary problem is not whether I, the healer, am allowed to stand still and cast. The primary problem is that I can plan and schedule casts (or instants) in the first place.

It's the ability to plan and schedule actions that means that fights can be designed around (excessive amounts of) active moment, because the fight designer can assume/require that players be in or near certain spots at certain times.

[Raikai]

I also say that one of the aspects that makes it 'DDR' for me is that there's so much symmetry and mirroring in the mechanics to the point that it looks like a full blown ballroom dance sometimes. Everything relates just to be on the right spot, with the right partner/group. (Ironically they released M5S where this kind of thing would actually make perfect sense for the encounter's fantasy).

Ever wonder why the stage floorings are designed in a way that most of the time the patterns will match the mechanics lines? Or why the bosses still centers themselves so much. They want the least amount possible of 'creative solving of mechanics' from players, so they don't even give the option for the tanks to have agency for the boss positioning through important mechanics.