Thread: Please Share Updates on 8.0 Job Design

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

One other thing to note on the topic of when job changes are planned is we can look back at examples like Dawntrail’s Astro and Dragoon which we knew had changes planned for 6.2 originally, or Endwalker monk which had changes made in 5.4 with plans on bigger changes set for 6.0, and in these examples, the design process likely began much sooner— at least a patch.

So even if we don’t have any word on any changes in particular, if talk of 8.0 focusing on job identity is both true and not an exaggeration… Even if the changes aren’t full rework level changes, I have to imagine they’ve already started setting their course for at least some of the jobs. Because every job will likely see some amount of change, and that’s a lot even for less ambitious changes per job. Of course, that all assumes Yoshi P’s statement about 8.0 is legitimate.

The "improved encounter design" in 7.0 (7.2 onwards?) can be really well made, but it's still their formula of success with a few unique additions here and there. With that in mind, I do wonder what they even consider big enough to warrant the job changes be one of 8.0's selling points, even before the expansion is announced. Do they consider the fight design changes in 7.0+ a big thing?

If we take the current paradigm, I can't see a way for most jobs to grow (and would dare somebody point how) without being massively reworked. Otherwise we'd see just more follow-up actions or new actions enabled by a 120s button press, like how Presence of Mind enables the usage of Glare IV.

I guess it will either be a very meaningless rework, or a massive one to the point that I ask myself how they'll deliver that AND new jobs.

Originally Posted by Raikai

The "improved encounter design" in 7.0 (7.2 onwards?) can be really well made, but it's still their formula of success with a few unique additions here and there. With that in mind, I do wonder what they even consider big enough to warrant the job changes be one of 8.0's selling points, even before the expansion is announced. Do they consider the fight design changes in 7.0+ a big thing?

If we take the current paradigm, I can't see a way for most jobs to grow (and would dare somebody point how) without being massively reworked. Otherwise we'd see just more follow-up actions or new actions enabled by a 120s button press, like how Presence of Mind enables the usage of Glare IV.

I guess it will either be a very meaningless rework, or a massive one to the point that I ask myself how they'll deliver that AND new jobs.

The marketing from Yoshida was that there would be a huge paradigm shift in combat via improved encounter design in 7.2(I think he initially just said Dawntrail) and then job overhauls in 8.0 focusing on their identities and different ways to play. I do not see a single reason to believe him so far.

Originally Posted by Daralii

The marketing from Yoshida was that there would be a huge paradigm shift in combat via improved encounter design in 7.2(I think he initially just said Dawntrail) and then job overhauls in 8.0 focusing on their identities and different ways to play. I do not see a single reason to believe him so far.

There wasn't a paradigm shift for the encounter design, I can't really put that as a reference to the 'size' of the expectation for 8.0's jobs.

There's another thread discussing it, but honestly I feel that you can't design encounters and jobs separately, because one is part of the other.

Originally Posted by Raikai

There wasn't a paradigm shift for the encounter design, I can't really put that as a reference to the 'size' of the expectation for 8.0's jobs.

There's another thread discussing it, but honestly I feel that you can't design encounters and jobs separately, because one is part of the other.

I agree. I don’t think it makes sense to do jobs and combat separately. But if you are going to do them separately anyway, it makes less sense to do encounters first for one major reason.

Throughout an expansion, job change is mostly an all-at-once transition at the start of an expansion, and mid-expansion changes are usually more mild or are about one or two jobs max. Not all of them at once. But encounter design is handled in waves as new dungeons, raids, alliances, field ops, etc are released with each patch. So you could in theory change the jobs and keep the .0 content mostly familiar while gradually introducing more changes in direction with each successive patch. So if the argument is we can’t handle it all at once, changing jobs first allows for a more gradual adjustment period.

Still, gameplay is 50/50 encounter design/job design. They should’ve been designed concurrently.

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I agree. I don’t think it makes sense to do jobs and combat separately. But if you are going to do them separately anyway, it makes less sense to do encounters first for one major reason.

Throughout an expansion, job change is mostly an all-at-once transition at the start of an expansion, and mid-expansion changes are usually more mild or are about one or two jobs max. Not all of them at once. But encounter design is handled in waves as new dungeons, raids, alliances, field ops, etc are released with each patch. So you could in theory change the jobs and keep the .0 content mostly familiar while gradually introducing more changes in direction with each successive patch. So if the argument is we can’t handle it all at once, changing jobs first allows for a more gradual adjustment period.

Still, gameplay is 50/50 encounter design/job design. They should’ve been designed concurrently.

What prevents them to change jobs halfway anyway? What are their battle system designers even working on during those years before the next expansion?

Originally Posted by Valence

What prevents them to change jobs halfway anyway? What are their battle system designers even working on during those years before the next expansion?

Well, in the examples I gave, both times it was mentioned that they didn’t have the resources to invest in the changes for a patch and had to wait for the next expansion. In the Astro and dragoon case, it seemed like the reworks they wanted started smaller and grew out of scope. Certainly there’s nothing stopping them from having a more gradual approach to job changes if they really wanted to, but that’s just now how they do things at this time. So without also demanding a shift in their development pipeline, it would’ve made more sense in my mind to do the opposite what they did. Or just change both going into 7.0.

Originally Posted by Underscore

My predictions for 8.0 job design:

1. They will remove several beloved abilities from the jobs to free up hotbar space for unnecessary new actions added simply because it's tradition to do so.

2. Each job will receive 1-2 huge flashy finisher moves stapled onto their 2 minute burst.

3. The changes will be announced shortly before release and be widely unpopular. All player feedback given during that brief period will be ignored.

4. The changes will be implemented, and the devs won't reverse them because they never do that.

Earlier in DT, Yoshi P did describe them playing around with horizontal progression systems since the level cap won’t be going up. He gave an example of an idea they talked about being maybe you choose between two different enhancements for an action. That’s not what they’re going with and maybe it’s not even close.

It’s probably not going to be the same hollow approach that DT had, but horizontal doesn’t really promise anything of substance anyway. And the forum reaction was to assume the worst and that the choices would be meaningless. There would be a right answer and a wrong answer. Anyone who chose the wrong answer will be a troll. Etc.

So it’s also possible that this reaction may have influenced them to reel in their ideas if there was any ambition in them to begin with.

The reason there is a right and wrong answer is because of the lack of granularity of the core system behind. For instance if just taking the latest role actions they introduced in FL pvp, there is no right or wrong answer for a lot of them, say for tanks, taking Rampart or Rampage isn't a matter of right or wrong, but a matter of playstyles and how well it meshes with specific jobs or group compositions. You won't see that much in pve because the current pve only has one single metric: standing in the correct spot and doing damage.

I know a lot of people say players don't want difficult or interesting job design (it's just forum people crying) but ironically like 95% of people i've met in game (or social media about the game) have mentioned how bad job design has got.

I do think we have to admit that we need some friction with job design and in general it needs to be more appealing, playing a different job should feel unique and give you reason to repeat a content, maybe a reason why it feels like theirs nothing to do is the fact that once you clear or do something on one job, playing a different job isn't going to offer much of a different experience.

Though theirs honestly a lot they need to do, job design is just a big part of that.