@Casuals , do you think the message has gotten through?

[Lorika]

Who said I was talking about FL? That's not the only PvP mode...

Also, this quaint notion of "range"... yes, I can spend all my time running away from every one who's trying to chase me down, but then I'll be doing nothing useful while getting killed anyway.



Unless, of course, I used it on someone else in the party... because, you know, healer, maybe that's what a healer ought to be doing? Maybe there was someone in the thick-of-combat who looked like they needed an assist right then and there?



Unless, of course, the player that "needs" CC isn't actually in range, or spent a split second to peak out from behind a wall before hiding again...

It's all good and well to list out theoretical possibilities, but actual practice and combat are very different. And thus far, no one's mentioned anything useful and actionable that couldn't have been gleaned from the official job guides.

But then, that's what makes PvP "interesting", yah? The fact that it's so varied that you can't reduce explanations down to a few pithy phrases.

But none of this gets at my original point:



There is plenty of PvE content that prevents you from acting as you desire, and no one complains about any of that... aside from Strayborough... because all of those other instances make it clear what you have to do to avoid a sad fate, at least in retrospect.

Healer in PvP doesn't mean "healing". In fact WHM and SGE are more akin to "green" DPS with healing capabilities (AST and SCH are more Buffer/Debuffer than healer).
So, first thing :you are never in the back. You must always be in the middle of pack. The ideal range is where you can attack, disrupt the enemies, but also buff and help your allies.

For Aquaveil : you only use on yourself. For the other you have Seraph Strike (and stone skin in front).
For Miracle of Nature, you don't use it defensively but offensively. Generaly the main target are Tanks.... Because thoses job need to be in melee and they really love to use their gap closer. So they tend to happily jump into the ennemies group! And here come Miracle of Nature : a nasty present for feisty Tanks
Also, you never hard cast Cure, it can easily be interupt and you better off casting any other skills (In case you're focused and alone : Seraph Strike (Mit + Stacks of Glare IV + Instant Curee II) + Aquaveil(Shield). Like that you have far more than enough tools to survive and attack while fleeing or waiting for someone to come help you....A well played WHM can take forever to kill).

So, conclusin : WHM is a "Green" DPS. You attack first. Support and healing come with the offense (Seraph Strike for mit and Cure II, Afflatus Purgation for Stun and temperance). you don't stay in the back for healing, it's not the way WHM is played in PvP.

[Valence]

What do you mean you only use Aquaveil on yourself? Don't sit on your tools when they could benefit your allies, and most of the time it's gonna be the melees ahead that'd beg for one more trump card vs crowd control. Aquaveil also comes with a barrier which can save lives.
Similarly, hardcasting Cure II can also be the difference between life and death for someone trying to retreat without dying.

@Amiable: On the comparison between luigi's mansion first boss and pvp crowd control, I do understand the analogy in that both can feel infuriating for the victim in terms of loss of agency. I also acknowledge that both eventually result from the player failing at something: in strayborough, it's failing at the DDR, and in pvp, it's failing at playing cautiously when purify or other tools are on cooldown or when being forced on point when the team is losing with no means of tempo.
I am definitely fonder of softer crowd control like bind/heavy or the old half asleep. I wish we had less hard stuns in pvp, but I guess I do acknowledge that crowd control is an inherent part of the core of pvp with interesting mechanics, where in luigi's it's just DDR. I'm much fonder when the action/reaction is inverted like in pvp where not only you can predict or plan for, but also react to, the latter not being the case in luigi's. And I'm saying that as someone that would LOVE crowd control to become a big part of pve, much like in pvp.

[Lorika]

What do you mean you only use Aquaveil on yourself? Don't sit on your tools when they could benefit your allies, and most of the time it's gonna be the melees ahead that'd beg for one more trump card vs crowd control. Aquaveil also comes with a barrier which can save lives..

Aquaveil is only usefull when you remove a status effects. Without removing one, the shield absord less than a base attack from most of the DPS and Tanks.
Generally, the others played purify quickly (and some job have also some extra skills for purify, like the Bard), the jobs getting more often status effects are generally the tanks (which love to be in the middle of the enemies group), the solo player (thoses that are only here fro the kill cont and love to be the other side of the maps) etc...

So, in the end, Aquaveil is best used as a personal shield, for many pratical reason.

[Valence]

Aquaveil is only usefull when you remove a status effects. Without removing one, the shield absord less than a base attack from most of the DPS and Tanks.
Generally, the others played purify quickly (and some job have also some extra skills for purify, like the Bard), the jobs getting more often status effects are generally the tanks (which love to be in the middle of the enemies group), the solo player (thoses that are only here fro the kill cont and love to be the other side of the maps) etc...

So, in the end, Aquaveil is best used as a personal shield, for many pratical reason.

Absorbing 8000 is nothing to scoff at and is the difference between life and death, as every little bit counts. There is also specific moments notably during openers when you know that your frontliners are going to get crowd controlled to death. Even then, while using it on self is perfectly acceptable and can save you, it can also have saved your allies when you decided instead to sit on it when they needed it.

[Lorika]

Absorbing 8000 is nothing to scoff at and is the difference between life and death, as every little bit counts. There is also specific moments notably during openers when you know that your frontliners are going to get crowd controlled to death. Even then, while using it on self is perfectly acceptable and can save you, it can also have saved your allies when you decided instead to sit on it when they needed it.

Sorry but no.... 8000, when a DPS skils turn around 12000 without buff....
While 16000 can make you survive a LB (or against a NIN or SAM).

And, anyway, like i said, Seraph Strike anf Stone Skin are far more than enough for your ally.... because thoses effect doesn't ask for a target.
And, seriously, targeting an ally in PvP is a freaking pain in the ass (for many reasons) and this where the difference between pushing the release buton or not really is.

[ChrysOCE]

Absorbing 8000 is nothing to scoff at and is the difference between life and death, as every little bit counts. There is also specific moments notably during openers when you know that your frontliners are going to get crowd controlled to death. Even then, while using it on self is perfectly acceptable and can save you, it can also have saved your allies when you decided instead to sit on it when they needed it.

Probably depends on whether you are talking about CC or FL. FL? Maybe I will throw it on someone? Maybe... But when you get 6-10+ opponents either focusing or AOEing, that Aquaveil isnt going to make that much of a difference. I'll save it for myself, if I need to exit in a hurry as it might help me escape from a fringe group of enemies.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I don’t think there’s anything wrong by using Aquaveil on another player in FL either. I’d use it to save an ally, especially if I recognize them as a ‘high impact’ player. But that would require me to not place myself in a danger zone too while helping them.

[Valence]

Sorry but no.... 8000, when a DPS skils turn around 12000 without buff....
While 16000 can make you survive a LB (or against a NIN or SAM).

And, anyway, like i said, Seraph Strike anf Stone Skin are far more than enough for your ally.... because thoses effect doesn't ask for a target.
And, seriously, targeting an ally in PvP is a freaking pain in the ass (for many reasons) and this where the difference between pushing the release buton or not really is.

8000 will stack up with other things. 8000 is the difference in HP between a tank and a ranged physical. 8000 is way more than what you'd typically find in damage balance changes and those can already completely tip the scales for a job. If you expect a 8k barrier to work 100% of the time then no, it won't but perhaps on its own it still will (i've seen it countless times), or if not then in combination to a clutch cure II or Cure III it will. I can also have more niche uses like nullifying a Zantetsuken if you're a good enough healer that can identify potential targets afflicted by Kuzushi, or it may also play into screwing with damage leeching jobs like WAR or SAM when one of their targets suddenly has a shield that will net them 0 self healing.
I don't disagree with the targeting pain, that's also why I don't main healers, this is my biggest annoyance with them.

Probably depends on whether you are talking about CC or FL. FL? Maybe I will throw it on someone? Maybe... But when you get 6-10+ opponents either focusing or AOEing, that Aquaveil isnt going to make that much of a difference. I'll save it for myself, if I need to exit in a hurry as it might help me escape from a fringe group of enemies.

I am firmly speaking about CC, because pvp is balanced around CC and not FL.

[Lorika]

I am firmly speaking about CC, because pvp is balanced around CC and not FL.

Oh you mean the mode where you are only two peoples escorting the crystal while the 3 others are at the other team respawn?
This is one of the many reasons why Aquaveil is best used as personal shield : most of the time ally are too far or/and hidden by walls.

And when everyone is together... As a WHM you are very often the focus of the other team. (and especially after firing up your LB.... The two shining wings act like a giant target XD).

So yeah, on paper Aquaveil is nice to put on other... But in fact, you use is far more often on you and putting it on others is very secondary.

[Lucinda]

I thought I'd comment here as my sub runs out either today or tomorrow. I didn't see myself playing FFXIV forever, but it was my ideal game that I've been playing for almost 8 years. I loved crafting, housing, and the occasional combat content. It's not that savage was too difficult, as I can pick up mechanics quickly - it just felt like a second job to have to be part of a static, and don't get me started on how shambolic party finder can be, lol!

I noticed issues since Endwalker, but the story glossed over it all for me. But after playing through DT, I could no longer ignore it. I main AST and I felt the job got gutted over time... housing slots increase taking forever to come, crafting felt like macro simulator and everyone and their grandmas are now doing it...

I held out hope, but the patches are taking longer and longer, and whilst I'm happy for raiders, I have had little to do. Cosmic Exploration was alright, but at this point I'm just so jaded. I may try and keep my house once housing demolition turns back on, although I'm tired of being held hostage by a virtual house!

Hopefully SE can improve, but it feels like they're dead set on mediocrity.